Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:56 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.

A book is just a collection of paper.
Great things emerge from it though.
Case closed.

That is weak emergence. The properties of the whole, the book, is a function of the properties of parts, the letters.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:55 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:56 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.

A book is just a collection of paper.
Great things emerge from it though.
Case closed.

That is weak emergence.

So you admit there there is such a thing as emergence.
That means the whole thread is undermined.

The properties of the whole, the book, is a function of the properties of parts, the letters.

Now look at a specific book - Let's say The Origin of Species.
From a small collection of paper written originally by the hand of Charles Darwin the entire human world has been massively transformed.
It has spawned thousands of other books for and against. Is responsible as the foetus of modern biology and has informed all biological, geological, anthropological, archaeological and palaeontological sciences as well as psychology, psychiatry, sociology ad infinitem..

And you call that "WEAK"

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:07 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:55 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:56 pm

A book is just a collection of paper.
Great things emerge from it though.
Case closed.

That is weak emergence.

So you admit there there is such a thing as emergence.
That means the whole thread is undermined.

The properties of the whole, the book, is a function of the properties of parts, the letters.

Now look at a specific book - Let's say The Origin of Species.
From a small collection of paper written originally by the hand of Charles Darwin the entire human world has been massively transformed.
It has spawned thousands of other books for and against. Is responsible as the foetus of modern biology and has informed all biological, geological, anthropological, archaeological and palaeontological sciences as well as psychology, psychiatry, sociology ad infinitem..

And you call that "WEAK"

I am arguing against strong emergence to be more clear.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:09 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:07 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:55 pm
That is weak emergence.

So you admit there there is such a thing as emergence.
That means the whole thread is undermined.

The properties of the whole, the book, is a function of the properties of parts, the letters.

Now look at a specific book - Let's say The Origin of Species.
From a small collection of paper written originally by the hand of Charles Darwin the entire human world has been massively transformed.
It has spawned thousands of other books for and against. Is responsible as the foetus of modern biology and has informed all biological, geological, anthropological, archaeological and palaeontological sciences as well as psychology, psychiatry, sociology ad infinitem..

And you call that "WEAK"

I am arguing against strong emergence to be more clear.

You say "THERE IS NO EMERENCE".
I gave you an example of massively strong emergence.
Look what the Bible did. The Koran.
Even Harry Potter.

THen - how would you dismiss a musical score of Beethoven's fifth?

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:56 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:24 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:52 pm “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”

- Aristotle

Aristotle also thought women had fewer teeth then men, because he couldn't be bothered to ask Mrs. Aristotle to open her mouth so he could count her teeth.

Do believe just anything because some philosopher said it?

Do you think it's possible for non-Nazi's to discuss what Nazi's said and did, without being called a Nazi?

If so, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to extend that objectivity to the introduction of topical statements by seminal philosophers without projections of belief in those philosophers, or belief in anything else.

Such projections are unnecessary betwixt rational adults.

You dont 'alf talk some bollocks mate.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:09 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:07 pm
So you admit there there is such a thing as emergence.
That means the whole thread is undermined.


Now look at a specific book - Let's say The Origin of Species.
From a small collection of paper written originally by the hand of Charles Darwin the entire human world has been massively transformed.
It has spawned thousands of other books for and against. Is responsible as the foetus of modern biology and has informed all biological, geological, anthropological, archaeological and palaeontological sciences as well as psychology, psychiatry, sociology ad infinitem..

And you call that "WEAK"

I am arguing against strong emergence to be more clear.

You say "THERE IS NO EMERENCE".
I gave you an example of massively strong emergence.
Look what the Bible did. The Koran.
Even Harry Potter.

THen - how would you dismiss a musical score of Beethoven's fifth?

Let me clarify what is difference between strong and weak emergence: There is no explanation for strong emergence. The properties of the whole, therefore, are not functions of the properties of parts in strong emergence. You cannot design a system that exhibits strong emergence. The opposite is weak emergence. All your examples are weak emergence.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:47 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:09 pm
I am arguing against strong emergence to be more clear.

You say "THERE IS NO EMERENCE".
I gave you an example of massively strong emergence.
Look what the Bible did. The Koran.
Even Harry Potter.

THen - how would you dismiss a musical score of Beethoven's fifth?

Let me clarify what is difference between strong and weak emergence: There is no explanation for strong emergence. The properties of the whole, therefore, are not functions of the properties of parts in strong emergence. You cannot design a system that exhibits strong emergence. The opposite is weak emergence. All your examples are weak emergence.

No. My examples are strong by your definition, since the properties of the whole are not the same as paper and ink.
THe whole being the sound of music or massive social change in a multitude of ways.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:15 am

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:47 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:18 pm

You say "THERE IS NO EMERENCE".
I gave you an example of massively strong emergence.
Look what the Bible did. The Koran.
Even Harry Potter.

THen - how would you dismiss a musical score of Beethoven's fifth?

Let me clarify what is difference between strong and weak emergence: There is no explanation for strong emergence. The properties of the whole, therefore, are not functions of the properties of parts in strong emergence. You cannot design a system that exhibits strong emergence. The opposite is weak emergence. All your examples are weak emergence.

No. My examples are strong by your definition, since the properties of the whole are not the same as paper and ink.
THe whole being the sound of music or massive social change in a multitude of ways.

I didn't say the same. I said it is a function.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:54 pm _______

(Continued from prior post)

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Can a machine with parts that exchange electrons is conscious as well?

Theoretically, yes. But only if the machine can be designed to do precisely what a brain does, as in summon-forth the life essence imbued within the material fabric of its makeup (as described in the prior post), and then somehow trigger that life essence into awakening into a new individualization of consciousness.

But the brain does NOT do this EXACTLY. It is, although, THROUGH the brain that an individual consciousness exists, but it can be very simply and very easily argued that it is actually the brain that has been DISTORTING and/or PREVENTING, or at least the SLOWING DOWN of 'emerging' INTO God from taking place, EARLIER.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:54 pm If the Creator of this universe were to even allow such a thing, how long do you think it would be before humans would be capable of achieving such a "God-level" feat?

Furthermore, how would they even know if they were successful?

When one uncovers, learns, and/or KNOWS what 'God' is EXACTLY, then when 'success' is achieved, or not, is also KNOWN.

There is NO 'Creator' of 'this Universe' OUTSIDE OF, APART FROM, BEFORE, nor AFTER 'this Universe'. 'This Universe' is therefore the Creator of Itself - 'thee' or 'this Universe'.

LOOKING AT and posing a question regarding WHEN 'human beings' would be capable of achieving such a 'God-level' feat is MISSING the WHOLE Picture, and thinking that 'you', human beings, have some significant importance over ANY other living 'thing' is also MISSING the POINT and, literally, the MARK.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Is internet conscious?

No!

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Remember, that you are trying to explain a solution for the hard problem of consciousness.

No, bahman, I'm trying to explain why your declaration of "there Is no emergence," is nonsense.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Second, if we agree that the brain can become conscious from non-conscious parts given the circumstances then it means that the brain's function, most importantly conscious functioning, is a function of properties of parts.

If you think that a full explanation of all of the workings of a human mind can be traced down to something taking place between the properties and parts of the brain, then you are describing "weak emergence" not "strong emergence."

However even "weak emergence" is still an example of "emergence," which renders your thread title null and void.

And, lastly, it's not the brain that becomes conscious.

No, it is the living, self-aware "agent" of the emergent mind that becomes conscious after efflorescing ("emerging") from the unconscious (but living) material fabric of a brain, which, again, is simply the advanced mental holography of a higher mind (as was described in the prior post).
_______

To me, there is ONLY One Mind, which IS thee one and ONLY True One in the WHOLE Universe.

The so-called "emergent mind", which 'you' speak of here is just referring to the 'thoughts' within an individual human body. It is these 'thoughts' (and 'emotions'), which is the 'conscious one', also known as the human 'being', or 'person'. 'you', people or human beings, are constantly 'emerging' when the body is breathing and pumping blood. This is because the body is continually 'experiencing', and those 'experiences' (of information) are being 'fed into' the brain, through the five senses, which then become, literally, 'thoughts' of the 'outside of the body' 'world'. The 'you', person or (human) being, is continually 'emerging', or what I like to call continually becoming 'anew'. Whereas the visible, physical, body is often perceived as getting 'older', by some or even most, the 'you', person and being, is always getting 'new' or 'newer'. Now, this is the 'individual consciousness', within human bodies.

The Consciousness of EVERY 'thing' is within ALL bodies, (or ALL particles of matter). This ABILITY to put 'one's' 'Self' 'into the shoes of others', as it is sometimes referred to happens because of the Mind, and the Mind alone. The Mind in ALL 'things', including 'you', human beings, is what has ALLOWED has allowed the human being to be ABLE TO IMAGINE, DESIGN, and CREATE absolutely EVERY 'thing' that 'you', human beings have DONE and ACHIEVED. It is ONLY through A Truly OPEN Mind where absolutely ANY and EVERY 'thing' can be LEARNED, REASONED, and UNDERSTOOD. Having a "closed mind" as it is Incorrectly referred to does NOT ALLOW ANY of the above to occur and happen.

Thee 'Mind' word just means, is, or refers to thee 'Creator' of ALL 'things', which are DREAMED UP and CREATED. Whereas, the visible, physical, part of the 'Universe', at ANY given moment, is, in a sense, thee Creator of what is about to occur and happen. The Universe IS, literally, Creating Its Self.

Obviously, this is STILL NOT YET worded Correctly nor in a way that is YET VERY EASILY and SIMPLY UNDERSTOOD by most of 'you', in the days when this is being written. But, learning how to communicate with 'you', human beings, is just a continually 'emerging' process.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:38 pm Bahman,

You have no sense of humor!!!!

Ok. What is your opinion then?
[/quote]

Bahman,
I believe it is all emergent. It really comes down to things arising from a base condition, as the environment now is a condition and the condition in which life arose was much different.[/quote]

Literally absolutely EVERY named 'thing' arises from the so-called 'base condition', which, by the way, this 'condition' EXISTS ALWAYS HERE-NOW.

Life NEVER arose, from let us say NOTHING NOR ANY 'thing' ELSE outside NOR apart FROM 'this Universe', Itself. When one can START to UNDERSTAND the absolute ABSURDITY in IMAGINING that Everything arose from NOTHING, or let us say ANY 'thing' OUTSIDE of this Universe, then one can START to SEE 'things' how they Truly ARE.

Obviously, the environment 'NOW' is A 'condition', and the 'way', 'shape', and 'form' of 'the condition' at ANY given moment LOOKS DIFFERENT. However, 'the condition' that the environment is in 'NOW' is the EXACT SAME 'state' that 'the environment' is IN ALWAYS, ETERNALLY. That 'condition' or 'state' is A constant state of CHANGE.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:38 pm Life became linked with the change of condition and even contributed to the said change of condition. So in my thinking consciousness is the change of one's condition by that larger condition of the environment through reaction to the said environment and in its reaction, it becomes in degree the cause of the changes in the environment. How and when does a condition become a thing is something wonderous to ponder.

HOW and WHEN ANY 'condition' or 'thing' become a 'thing' is WHEN a 'being' provides a NAME or a LABEL for, and of, a THING. And that is HOW a 'condition' becomes a 'thing', as well.

When, and IF, 'you' EVER get around to DEFINE the 'words' USED HERE, in a way that FIT IN WITH, MATCH, and/or UNIFY the DEFINITIONS of ALL 'words', then thee Truth is REVEALED, which is just the TOE and GUT becoming ACTUAL Facts.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Well, there are two things in here that I would like to discuss. First, if we accept that there is an explanation for how the brain is conscious in spite of the fact that its parts are not then the question of how consciousness can emerge becomes valid. So you owe an explanation of how this could possibly happen when you notice that all that is happening in the brain is the exchange of electrons between neurons.

Okay, and admitting up front that I could be completely wrong about all of this, here's my highly speculative (perhaps even nut-jobbery ) explanation for how living consciousness emerges from inanimate matter...

Like George Berkeley, I believe that the universe is the MIND of a higher (incorporeal) consciousness.

I'm talking about a Being that is as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above flies, as is metaphorically depicted in a couple of my illustrations...



Now, with the universe being the MIND of this higher consciousness, it means that the universe's phenomenal features (suns, planets, water, rocks, sand, houses, cars, etc., etc.) are literally "alive"...

...(Note: not conscious, just alive due to being imbued (saturated) with this higher Being's living essence. And that would be in the exact same way that the phenomenal features of that vivid dream you may have had last night are literally "alive" because they are imbued with your life essence.)

To which I suggest that because a brain is, in fact, an extremely advanced manifestation of the higher mind's mental holography, it has thus been "designed" in such a way that not only allows it to summon-forth the life essence residing in the mental substance from which it is created,...

...but in the case of the human brain, it has also been "designed" to somehow cause (or trigger, or enable) that life essence to awaken into a new individualization of consciousness with a personal (and self-aware) identity.

Thus it can be understood that this new individualization of self-aware consciousness with a personal identity (along with its accompanying mind), "emerges" from the living fabric of matter in the form of something that is "wholly different" from the constituent properties of the matter from which it arose.

And that, my dear bahman, makes it an example of "strong emergence."

Now I realize (as uwot likes to remind me) that these are all extremely "iffy" propositions.

Nevertheless, if the universe is indeed the MIND of a higher consciousness, then it would also explain the phenomenon of what biologists call "abiogenesis." For if the essence of life (the basis of mind and consciousness) is already present within the fabric of matter,...

...then it is simply a tiny little step in imagining how inanimate (yet living) matter could become animate matter (evolvable micro-organisms) that can then be guided (either through natural evolution - or - through purposeful design) into becoming higher forms of life.

Anyway, that, in a nutshell, is my explanation of what "strong emergence" is all about.

(Continued in next post)
_______

You are not offering a valid argument in favor of strong emergence.

This is because of what 'you' ALREADY ASSUME and/or BELIEVE is true.

Just like a valid argument for God EXISTING could NEVER be provided to one who ASSUMES and/or BELIEVES God does NOT EXIST, and vice-versa, a valid argument for God NOT EXISTING could NEVER be provided to one who ASSUMES and/or BELIEVES God does EXIST, a 'strong argument' in favor of strong emergence could NEVER be provided, well to 'you' anyway.

You have come here and started this thread WITH: "There is NO emergence", which you BELIEVE wholeheartedly is true, CORRECT?

And, if yes, then, to you, there is NO sound NOR valid argument OTHERWISE, again correct?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 pm Again, you need to explain how.

Explain HOW in relation to WHAT, EXACTLY?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 pm All you are saying is that the universe and all therein are conscious and in the case of humans, we have a personal identity that is the result of how the brain is structured. Therefore, we have strong emergence.

If this is ALL you TOOK AWAY from what was said above to you, then so be it.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:51 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:02 pm Second, if we agree that the brain can become conscious from non-conscious parts given the circumstances then it means that the brain's function, most importantly conscious functioning, is a function of properties of parts.

If you think that a full explanation of all of the workings of a human mind can be traced down to something taking place between the properties and parts of the brain, then you are describing "weak emergence" not "strong emergence."

However even "weak emergence" is still an example of "emergence," which renders your thread title null and void.

And, lastly, it's not the brain that becomes conscious.

No, it is the living, self-aware "agent" of the emergent mind that becomes conscious after efflorescing ("emerging") from the unconscious (but living) material fabric of a brain, which, again, is simply the advanced mental holography of a higher mind (as was described in the prior post).
_______

But if the design matter, then it means that there is an explanation for how the brain is conscious.

You were JUST TOLD, and thus INFORMED; 'It is NOT the brain that becomes conscious", YET in your very NEXT SENTENCE you STATE: "... then it means that there is an explanation for how THE BRAIN IS CONSCIOUS.

LOOK, there is AN EXPLANATION for HOW EVERY 'thing' WORKS, and thus IS 'created' AND 'evolves'. One just HAS TO RID "themselves" of ANY PRE-CONCEIVED IDEAS if they just want to LEARN and UNDERSTAND ALL of these EXPLANATIONS. Which, by the way, ALL come down to just ONE EXPLANATION.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:51 pm The explanation is the function that you claim that you have. So if there is an explanation for the emergence of consciousness in the brain then we are dealing with weak emergence instead of strong emergence. Again, do you have an explanation? Or you think the emergence is not explicable, strong emergence.

And I am arguing against strong emergence in this thread. Anybody knows that 1+1=2 that this is a weak emergence.

How about you DEFINE what the words 'strong emergence' MEAN or REFER TO, to 'you', personally. THEN, and ONLY THEN, provide what 'you' call is "your argument" that; "THERE IS NO EMERGENCE", which, as can be CLEARLY SEEN here, CONTRADICTS what you just wrote here in your last sentence. However, if you DID THAT, then we can LOOK AT and SEE if "your argument" is valid AND sound. And, as I continually TELL you; If an argument is NOT a valid AND sound argument, then REALLY it is NOT worth sharing in the first place, let alone ever repeating.

(I replied to the top half of this post, but it was lost and I could not be bothered repeating it.)

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:59 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:06 pm How can biology be possible from non biological processes? Biology is not a whole new thing, but rather, a novel behaviour of particular configurations of matter.

It is those configurations which have the novel making power, not the electrons themselves. Imagine the electrons and protons as a substrate for that novel behaviour called biology.

Now, we have a new substrate. Biology is the substrate of consciousness. Particularly a new novel form of biology called a nervous system. A nervous system carries sensory signals to a central area we call the brain, with such complexity that, asking a person to attempt to explain how consciousness emerges from it is like asking someone to decrypt a nearly unbreakable code.

The task is immense to try to lay out just how consciousness is a product of biology and the nervous system/brain configuration meeting an external world.

Your request is nevertheless, a fair request. Materialism has the burden of proof to explain just how consciousness comes from that system. Until then, we should not revert to other explanations with zero credence. We should adopt a more Bayesian approach, or risk going against the preponderance of evidence which the many fields of science have built up, explaining that there is nothing in nature which does not fall under the banner of natural.

Consciousness seems entirely reliant on the bodily system. Can you provide any evidence counter to this?

Any biological system governs the physical laws!

The word 'govern' sometimes refers to; having authority over some 'thing'; some 'thing' is caused or created because of some 'thing' else earlier or prior.

Now, to most people, it appears ALL 'biological systems' came about a 'considerable time' AFTER what was EXISTING PRIOR. So, to make a statement like: ANY 'biological system' 'governs' 'the physical laws' , on, first glance, appears TOTALLY ABSURD and EXTREMELY CONTRADICTORY. But, maybe you COULD CLEAR UP the apparent CONFUSION here. So, what is 'it', EXACTLY, that you are SAYING or SUGGESTING here?

See, to a LOT of people, 'biological systems' came about on earth, (or at other places?), WELL AFTER 'physical laws' were, literally, ALREADY in PLACE.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:59 pm
In fact, scientists simulate simple biological systems these days.

AND, the POINT IS?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:59 pm We know if there is a current in a system then you only have an electromagnetic field and nothing else, such as a conscious field. These are the laws of physics. This means that you cannot have a conscious field no matter how do you rewire your system of interest.

Are 'you', the one known as "bahman" here, 'conscious', 'unconscious', or maybe just 'subconscious', or are 'you' some 'thing' else?

Also, if I have a working human brain, 'my system of interest', and so-call "rewire" 'it', by just making 'it' create new/er or different 'thoughts', then are you saying here that there can NEVER be a so-called "conscious field", in my system of interest?

If no, then what are you SAYING, EXACTLY?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:01 am

Age wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:17 pm
Read OP, please.

I read 'it' AGAIN.

And this is HOW I was ABLE TO SHOW how you have REFUTED your OWN CLAIMS there.

Do you understand my argument?

I understand 'your argument', from 'my perspective, which, OBVIOUSLY, could be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from 'your perspective'.

Do you understand my arguments or claims?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:01 am If yes what I am saying and what is your refutation?

What you are, literally, saying is:

To show this [that there is, ALLEGEDLY, NO emergence] consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.

Now, 'my refutation' is IN EXACTLY the quoted part that you are replying to here. Which is:

But, "your argument" was ALREADY 'self-refuted'.

This is because in "your argument" you are ASSUMING 'things', and 'your conclusion" is based upon those ASSUMPTIONS.

Now, OBVIOUSLY, just because 'you' ASSUME some 'things', this does NOT MEAN that those ASSUMED 'things' are true, right, NOR correct.

If 'we' are going to ASSUME 'things' in 'an argument', then the conclusion of 'that argument' is NOT necessarily going to be true, right, NOR correct.

So, what you will HAVE TO DO from now on, that is; if you want to PROVIDE an ACTUAL sound AND valid, thus IRREFUTABLE 'argument', is start by PROVIDING ACTUAL PROOFS for what you say in "your arguments" or PROVIDE EXAMPLES of 'things' that ACTUALLY DO EXIST.

THEN, we can LOOK AT and DISCUSS "your arguments" AGAIN.

Until then you have YET to PROVIDE an ACTUAL sound AND valid 'argument'. As I have INFORMED you ALREADY those types of 'arguments' are the ONLY ones LOOKING AT and REPEATING, as they are the ONLY ones that are IRREFUTABLE. EVERY other type of 'argument' is REFUTABLE and so REALLY NOT even worth MENTIONING, let alone TALKING ABOUT and DISCUSSING, REPEATEDLY.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

However to elaborate FURTHER for you.

1. You CLAIM to SHOW how there is, supposedly, NO 'emergence', then we have to consider 'a system' with many parts each part has a set of properties.

I did this when I considered 'the system' known as 'the Universe', Itself, within where there are 'many parts', which have their own set of properties.

2. You say, "Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property."

I made it VERY CLEAR that TO ASSUME some 'thing', and then make YOUR CONCLUSION on that ASSUMED 'thing', which could be TOTALLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, could then lead you to TOTALLY False, Wrong, or Incorrect CONCLUSIONS.

3. I INFORMED you that IF you REALLY WANT TO provide IRREFUTABLE CLAIMS or ARGUMENTS, then just PROVIDE IRREFUTABLE Facts, and NOT ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL.

4. Surely even you can consider and understand this, right?

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:16 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:59 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:06 pm How can biology be possible from non biological processes? Biology is not a whole new thing, but rather, a novel behaviour of particular configurations of matter.

It is those configurations which have the novel making power, not the electrons themselves. Imagine the electrons and protons as a substrate for that novel behaviour called biology.

Now, we have a new substrate. Biology is the substrate of consciousness. Particularly a new novel form of biology called a nervous system. A nervous system carries sensory signals to a central area we call the brain, with such complexity that, asking a person to attempt to explain how consciousness emerges from it is like asking someone to decrypt a nearly unbreakable code.

The task is immense to try to lay out just how consciousness is a product of biology and the nervous system/brain configuration meeting an external world.

Your request is nevertheless, a fair request. Materialism has the burden of proof to explain just how consciousness comes from that system. Until then, we should not revert to other explanations with zero credence. We should adopt a more Bayesian approach, or risk going against the preponderance of evidence which the many fields of science have built up, explaining that there is nothing in nature which does not fall under the banner of natural.

Consciousness seems entirely reliant on the bodily system. Can you provide any evidence counter to this?

Any biological system governs the physical laws! In fact, scientists simulate simple biological systems these days. We know if there is a current in a system then you only have an electromagnetic field and nothing else, such as a conscious field. These are the laws of physics. This means that you cannot have a conscious field no matter how do you rewire your system of interest.

Science has barely scraped the surface of the morphology of the brain, let alone do they grasp just how the brain functions,

But HOW the brain 'functions' is VERY SIMPLE and REALLY VERY EASY indeed.

The brain works just like a computer does, in that 'it' can only 'put out' what has been 'fed into' 'it'. And, that is just about it REALLY.

The Mind, however, functions VERY DIFFERENTLY, but just as EASILY and just as SIMPLY, I will add.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:16 am therefore you can’t say with any certainty that consciousness could not come from the brain. Give science time. I’m not saying it has any clue right now, I would agree with that, but that is not because it has explored all possibilities but rather due to its ignorance.

Consciousness is NOT the brain, and does NOT just come FROM just the brain ALONE. Consciousness ARISES, EXISTS, or comes FROM or THROUGH a brain. The brain is just one part of the process WHERE 'consciousness' 'comes FROM'.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:16 am You are thinking in a reductionistic manner. If the only tool you have is a hammer (fundamental physics) then all you see is nails (lifeless particles). Do some research into chaos theory, complex systems etc. You cannot understand emergence from your current mindset, so you conclude it’s BS. But you only display you complete ignorance on the subject.