Philosophy Now Forum

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:11 pm
you may know the nature of the next realm, if so great. I personally do not, nor do i fixate upon.

There would have to be a reason for a "next realm" and like god none was ever found but only improvised by imagination and wishful thinking. We have never remotely discovered anything beyond nature which could create such a realm nor what its purpose would be. Nature being completely oblivious to one's existence it's impossible to fathom an after-life in consequence of one's life in the here & now. But it gives those who require it a good feeling to believe it and THAT is its purpose which no-longer exists or needs to exist when one's clock stops ticking.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:01 am There would have to be a reason for a "next realm" and like god none was ever found but only improvised by imagination and wishful thinking. We have never remotely discovered anything beyond nature which could create such a realm nor what its purpose would be. Nature being completely oblivious to one's existence it's impossible to fathom an after-life in consequence of one's life in the here & now. But it gives those who require it a good feeling to believe it and THAT is its purpose which no-longer exists or needs to exist when one's clock stops ticking.

Good description.

If only those who need to believe such a thing could do so without imposing it on others. It seems, for SOME, that practicing it quietly/peacefully for themselves is often too close to an acknowledgement that it's their individual fantasy. So they need to beat everyone else over the head with it as a way to validate and glorify themselves. I think they should be held accountable for that. We're not allowed to impose our bodies on other people -- that's a crime -- so imposing religious delusions that condemn all others should be a crime too. It's twisted and toxic.

We have become numb to such excesses because they have been embedded in society for so long like some kind of controlling, unchecked virus, instigated and continued for various power plays/agendas and egos. Values and spirituality have been mangled into self-serving definitions, and declared as belonging to only a few.

For those who feel their spiritual connections in ways that they define for themselves and express through practicing love and acceptance, the kind of madness above is an evil distortion that seeks to destroy all but ITSELF: declaring that it must reign over all. Why would anyone or anything need to do that?

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:52 pm i think man is good enough to be "Saved" just by his nature as long as he follows his conscience.
in this we have to agree to dissagree.

Well, of course, it won't be decided by you or by me.

If there's no God, we need -- and can have -- no salvation. The term doesn't even have a Christian meaning, then. If there is a God, it is not what you think or I think that will decide what he accepts for our salvation. That, He will decide.

I'm not perfect nor is any cannibal, but if he and i try to be more good today than yesterday, for me that is "good enough" to be saved (assuming there is salvation/afterlife/and your God is a Just God).

Well, again...we are not the arbiters of this question. What is "good enough" for us is only "good enough" for us, not necessarily good enough for righteousness. We're going to need some help meeting that standard.

understtood, i guess i value the striving - those that at least left the shore - as worthy for doing that much.

I don't disagree that being moral is worthy. I would even argue that it's desirable, right, good, and appropriate for everybody. However, whether our own "swimming" will get us to Australia is quite another question. And whether our own personal moral efforts meet the standards we choose to set for them, well, that's a different question from whether or not they meet the standard necessary for a person to have reception by God.

thanks for reply Sir.

You're most welcome.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:53 pm

Are we in a Simulation or Divine Reality? :-
www.andrewseas.com

...what was that thing that was insisted on by the incarnate of the system - faith?

Sage wisdom is not gained from atheist knowledge, it requires a degree of theistic faith to be given such insight.

An atheist can be wise, but there is a limit - since the God system has asked us to seek and ye shall find - it insists on FAITH first.

Atheist philosophy is a contradiction in terms.

• Knowledge:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge

• Wisdom:
  Wisdom, sapience, or sagacity is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense and insight.
  The Oxford English Dictionary defines wisdom as
  "Capacity of judging rightly in matters relating to life and conduct; soundness of judgement in the choice of means and ends; sometimes, less strictly, sound sense, esp. in practical affairs: opp. to folly;"
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom

At least non-theists has the knowledge and wisdom to realize God is an illusion [impossible to exist as real] and theists are delusional in persistently insist God is real.
Note Buddhism is non-theistic which has a reputation of having knowledge and wisdom that do not promote evil and violent acts.

The supposedly absolute uncompromising "knowledge" and "wisdom" of theists lead to terrible evil and violent acts.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:07 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:01 am There would have to be a reason for a "next realm" and like god none was ever found but only improvised by imagination and wishful thinking. We have never remotely discovered anything beyond nature which could create such a realm nor what its purpose would be. Nature being completely oblivious to one's existence it's impossible to fathom an after-life in consequence of one's life in the here & now. But it gives those who require it a good feeling to believe it and THAT is its purpose which no-longer exists or needs to exist when one's clock stops ticking.

Good description.

If only those who need to believe such a thing could do so without imposing it on others. It seems, for SOME, that practicing it quietly/peacefully for themselves is often too close to an acknowledgement that it's their individual fantasy. So they need to beat everyone else over the head with it as a way to validate and glorify themselves. I think they should be held accountable for that. We're not allowed to impose our bodies on other people -- that's a crime -- so imposing religious delusions that condemn all others should be a crime too. It's twisted and toxic.

We have become numb to such excesses because they have been embedded in society for so long like some kind of controlling, unchecked virus, instigated and continued for various power plays/agendas and egos. Values and spirituality have been mangled into self-serving definitions, and declared as belonging to only a few.

For those who feel their spiritual connections in ways that they define for themselves and express through practicing love and acceptance, the kind of madness above is an evil distortion that seeks to destroy all but ITSELF: declaring that it must reign over all. Why would anyone or anything need to do that?

It's impossible to understand the perversity of human motives which forever tries to make itself rational. There's a huge difference between that which is explicitly believed because it is irrational and those who attempt to make it rational. The latter can only be made to appear so by absurdities, non sequiturs and intentional distortions forced to struggle against what history, logic and the real story of our existence in fact reveals.

For many belief is more akin to a passive hope and comfort zone which usually includes an understanding of those who don't require it. For others belief is weaponized battling what they affirm to be secular and nihilistic where even morality, if not theistically mandated, is without foundation even if its objectives are not in dispute. In effect, they overtly and perversely attempt to create for themselves a type of superiority based on vastly inferior and disjointed arguments often as leaders in a group of believers keeping their egos upright and extended.

If simple experience were allowed to rule it would tell us unequivocally that within the animal kingdom the Before & After of our In-between are equal to each other the interim merely an infinitesimal encircled by the timeless. Any sincere acknowledgement of this would thoroughly dismiss every form of invented theism to the point where even atheism becomes redundant. The sacred, in effect, must be discovered elsewhere.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:35 pm It's impossible to understand the perversity of human motives which forever tries to make itself rational. There's a huge difference between that which is explicitly believed because it is irrational and those who attempt to make it rational. The latter can only be made to appear so by absurdities, non sequiturs and intentional distortions forced to struggle against what history, logic and the real story of our existence in fact reveals.

For many belief is more akin to a passive hope and comfort zone which usually includes an understanding of those who don't require it. For others belief is weaponized battling what they affirm to be secular and nihilistic where even morality, if not theistically mandated, is without foundation even if its objectives are not in dispute. In effect, they overtly and perversely attempt to create for themselves a type of superiority based on vastly inferior and disjointed arguments often as leaders in a group of believers keeping their egos upright and extended.

Awesome! These are some of the points that I often try to make, but I tend to use more provocative language just to make it fun for myself since it's like talking to towering walls of ego and ignorance.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:35 pmIf simple experience were allowed to rule it would tell us unequivocally that within the animal kingdom the Before & After of our In-between are equal to each other the interim merely an infinitesimal encircled by the timeless.

Yes, indeed!

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:35 pmAny sincere acknowledgement of this would thoroughly dismiss every form of invented theism to the point where even atheism becomes redundant. The sacred, in effect, must be discovered elsewhere.

Yes. And personally, I see sacredness everywhere and in every moment. Of course some places and moments are more challenging ... but it's still everywhere (from my viewpoint). Just the awareness that we're flickering through this "reality", having interactions with "others" (of skin, fur, feathers, scales, etc.), and fully involved in a multi-sensory experience like gods on holiday -- is "sacred" beyond human distortions of what sacred is.

To fully embrace this is to experience something beyond any limited human notions of Heaven. And one doesn't have to wait for it (which would make no sense)! This might be an unfathomable or threatening idea to a lot of theists, but if they could see that the PRESENT MOMENT already contains everything possible to be experienced... and that the idea of a "long linear god-journey" is a story for the human mentality... then perhaps they could see and bask in the glory of RIGHT NOW and of WHAT ALREADY IS. Which is so much more than human stories can encompass, and there's no better/other time to experience it! Why wouldn't it be true that ALL IS ALREADY SACRED? Why would there be ANYTHING ELSE? Stories!!!