Philosophy Now Forum

Heh, I sure pissed off a bunch of Mathematicians today by asking them questions they don't like.

Mathematics is idealism/perfectionism! No mathematician can prove this theorem:

Let P = Integer value from 1 to infinity.
Lat FloatingPoints have precision P within the system
Let A = FloatingPoint(1.0)
Let B = FLoatingPoint(0.99999999999999.....)

Theorem 1: For all P: A !=B => True
Theorem 2: For all P: A == B => False

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:57 pm

Age wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:
Even the Universe will eventually die so too will everything else

Is that an absolute fact that you know for sure ?

Als in another thread you explained that what caused you to come into existence is timeless which infers an infinite aliveness
which in some ways contradicts what you just wrote here about EVERY thing WILL die . Can you clear this up for me please ?

I think that Existence is infinite but within it every thing is finite such as the Universe for example

IF, and when, the Universe is finished/dead/non existent, then what is (in) Existence? If there is NO Universe, then what else could be existing?

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:57 pmAnd I never said the death of the Universe was an absolute fact for those are your words not mine

But they are NOT my words. An OPEN question are MY words, but I am NOT stating any thing, like your are. YOUR words say; Even the Universe will eventually die .... Look above. You may NOT have said that it was an absolute fact. I was just asking was that an absolute fact, as that is how your words here come across to me.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:57 pmI should point out that when I say the Universe I only mean THIS Universe not the Universe per se

This appears to be a very confusing statement. Are you able to explain the difference?

How do you define the word 'Universe' first?

Age wrote:
IF and when the Universe is finished / dead / non existent then what is ( in ) Existence ? If there is NO Universe then what else could be ?

A new Universe is born as the old Universe dies [ this Universe is not going to exist forever because of entropy and expansion ]
What follows has to be something as states of absolute nothing cannot persist and that thing will have to be another Universe

Existence is not the Universe because Existence is eternal while the Universe will eventually die

Age wrote:
How do you define the word Universe

Local cosmic expansion is one definition
ALL THAT EXISTS is the other definition

And so it is important to remember that there are two different ones
To avoid confusion the second one can be referred to as the Multiverse

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:10 am

Age wrote:
IF and when the Universe is finished / dead / non existent then what is ( in ) Existence ? If there is NO Universe then what else could be ?

A new Universe is born as the old Universe dies [ this Universe is not going to exist forever because of entropy and expansion ]

Again is that a actual FACT, or just some thing which you have heard and now THINK is true?

When the so called "old" Universe dies, what happens to ALL the physical parts?

And, when a so called "new" Universe is "born", where or what did it come from?

The MORE this is LOOKED AT, and the more Honesty and Openness is used to answer these questions, then the quicker the actual and real Truth will come to light, and thus will be KNOWN.

By the way, you did NOT answer the first question.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:10 amWhat follows has to be something as states of absolute nothing cannot persist and that thing will have to be another Universe

Why is this so?

What evidence is there that absolute nothing can NOT persist?

And, what evidence is there that a state of absolute nothing has even existed or ever would exist?

Also, how do "you" define the word 'Universe'?

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:10 amExistence is not the Universe because Existence is eternal while the Universe will eventually die

But if there are states of absolute nothing, as you just implied there are, then that would also imply that there is nothing existing so HOW can Existence be eternal? If there is absolutely nothing 'existing', then what IS 'Existence', Itself?

By definition the word 'Existence', at least implies, some thing existing, correct?

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:15 am

Age wrote:
How do you define the word Universe

Local cosmic expansion is one definition
ALL THAT EXISTS is the other definition

And so it is important to remember that there are two different ones

What I SEE as far more important to remember is that one word can have very many different definitions, (which is very unfortunate as it causes confusion, and it is 'confusion' itself, which OBVIOUSLY makes UNDERSTANDING much more complicated and hard), but if you are going to say that a word you use has two very separate and distinct different definitions, then either you will have to explain each time, which definition you are using or I will have to ask you which one you mean now so that I can gain a very clear understanding of what you are saying.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:15 amTo avoid confusion the second one can be referred to as the Multiverse

So, why NOT just say 'multiverse' instead?

Just to make sure I am now understanding what you are now saying/proposing, The 'Universe' is only local cosmic expansion, which comes/begins/born and goes/ends/dies, but this, supposed, coming and going of different Universes happens within one Universe, which you now refer to as the 'Multiverse'?

If this is correct, then:
What size does 'local cosmic expansion' relate to?
How do "you" define/explain the words 'local cosmic expansion?
What IS, or is in, the 'Multiverse'? What is It made up of/look like?
Why did the words ALL-THERE-IS, which were once used for and to describe the word 'Universe', which used to be the one and only 'Universe', now change?

The word 'uni', by the way, refers to one, whereas, the word 'multi' refers to many. So, instead of causing more confusion would NOT the words 'ALL-THERE-IS' be more in line with/suited to just 'One' as in 'one-verse' or 'the Universe', instead of with 'many-verses' or 'multi-verses'. And, the words 'local cosmic expansion' be in line with 'many-verses' or 'multi-verses'? As the word 'local' relates to only some thing small relative to that what is much bigger?

By the way, why do human beings have the tendency to just change their views of things, and/or change the words they use, to suit newer or wider knowledge as it comes along.

The words in existence now work PERFECTLY to describe absolutely EVERY meaningful thing.

What NEEDS to be changed is the WAY human beings LOOK AT things. The VIEW, and the words, do NOT need to be changed. In fact the VIEW can NOT change. Only the WAY the VIEW (thee Truth) is LOOKED AT is what can be Truly changed. As soon as the WAY the VIEW/Truth is LOOKED AT changes, then the VIEW/Truth changes also.

The very reason WHY human beings can NOT yet SEE the actual Truth of things is because they only LOOK from a very small and narrow perspective of things.

By the way YOUR terms I think cause MORE confusion rather than avoiding it. But we will have to wait and SEE.

Age wrote:
Again is that an actual FACT or just some thing which you have heard and now THINK is true ?

I have read it but whether it is true or not I cannot say given it is a statement about the future

Age wrote:
When the so called old Universe dies what happens to ALL the physical parts ?

Not ALL the physical parts will remain after heat death occurs and a maximum state of entropy has been reached
What will remain will be some energy but it will be insufficient to do any work which is why the Universe will die

Age wrote:
And when a so called new Universe is born where or what did it come from ?

Did it not come from the energy that was left over from the heat death of the old Universe ?
It definitely did not come from a singularity since they are forbidden by Quantum Mechanics

Age wrote:
The MORE this is LOOKED AT and the more Honesty and Openness is used to answer these
questions then the quicker the actual and real Truth will come to light and thus will be KNOWN

Patience is both a virtue and a necessity with regard to matters cosmological
Truth will reveal itself when it is ready to not when human beings want it to

Age wrote:
Why is this so ?

Nothing cannot exist eternally so there has to be something instead
And that something has to be a new Universe coming into existence

Age wrote:
What evidence is there that absolute nothing can NOT persist ?

And what evidence is there that a state of absolute nothing has even existed or ever would exist ?

Quantum fluctuations violate such a state and so cause virtual particles to come into existence
Absolute nothing is a temporary quantum state that can only exist for a very infinitesimal time

Age wrote:
But if there are states of absolute nothing as you just implied there are then that would also imply that there is
nothing existing so HOW can Existence be eternal ? If there is absolutely nothing existing then what IS Existence Itself ?

By definition the word Existence at least implies some thing existing correct ?

Absolute nothing is a state can only exist at the quantum level but not the classical one
A vacuum state is the nearest thing to absolute nothing that could exist at the classical

Age wrote:
So why NOT just say multiverse instead

I prefer Universe despite the obvious confusion

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:57 am

Age wrote:
Again is that an actual FACT or just some thing which you have heard and now THINK is true ?

I have read it but whether it is true or not I cannot say given it is a statement about the future

Very true, so you can not say if it is true or not. But do you THINK it is true?

If a person BELIEVES some thing, then there really is NO use at all discussing with them any thing opposing that BELIEF, I have found. So, I found it helpful in gaining prior knowledge of what they BELIEVE is true before discussing.

What I also am now wondering is if a person THINKS some thing is true and how much this could hinder a truly open discussion or not at all.

So you have read that A new Universe is born as the old Universe dies [ this Universe is not going to exist forever because of entropy and expansion ]

Now, you have also said that you can not say whether this is true or not. But how much do you THINK it is true, if you do?