Philosophy Now Forum

'I'm a capitalist who also wants great segments of the economy regulated.'

Well, here in Amur'ca, great segments of the economy 'are' regulated on behalf of capitalists/socialists (two sides of the same coin).

Me: I want Free Enterprise.

And -- no -- capitalism ain't synonomous with Free Enterprise (and you're a commie [dupe, at least]).

As for Trump: said this before, didn't hire him to MAGA, hired him to TAUD.

S-S--o-S

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:36 pm
This thread concerns the essential philosophical question: Is the purpose of Man to serve the state or is the ideal purpose of the state to serve Man? The attraction to freedom vs the attraction to conceptions of statist slavery?

I think that's a false dichotomy - the purpose of the state is to serve as a protection for man's rights.

What or who establishes the rights of citizens? The same experts who will enforce statist slavery. The slave master protects the slaves.

The state serves man when it provides the quality of metaxu, the quality of culture that serves to connect Man psychologically with our source allowing us tofeel objective meaning. At this time such a society doesn't exist. The dualistic mind dominating secularism is only concerned with the level of reality we live our lives on. This level is where we experience the facts and impressions which we interpret.

Triune awareness enables a person to put such "facts" and impressions into a higher more conscious pespective where they are experienced as one. Facts are then put into the perspective of human value. This quality of perspective which also enables person to feel the value of higher values is experienced when a person opens to the vertical third dimension of thought.

Metaxu is then an intermediary which furthers the human connection of above and below.

Metaxu is meaningless for the secularist living by a dualistic mind perspective. However for those feeling a logical connection between levels of reality, some of this may make sense.

http://alchemy.movie/metaxu.html


Simone Weil quote on metaxu

“The world is the closed door. It is a barrier. And at the same time it is the way through.

Two prisoners whose cells adjoin communicate with each other by knocking on the wall. The wall is the thing which separates them but it is also their means of communication. … Every separation is a link.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:57 am 'I'm a capitalist who also wants great segments of the economy regulated.'

Well, here in Amur'ca, great segments of the economy 'are' regulated on behalf of capitalists/socialists (two sides of the same coin).

Me: I want Free Enterprise.

And -- no -- capitalism ain't synonomous with Free Enterprise (and you're a commie [dupe, at least]).

As for Trump: said this before, didn't hire him to MAGA, hired him to TAUD.

The above is a clear example of what I'm talking about. If Americans were better educated you'd get fewer of them in their Confederate finery naively ranting about dead ideologies.

Regulation is necessary in governments, otherwise there is total anarchy and general death and chaos (eg. Somalia). There is no such thing as free enterprise in heavily populated areas today. You are living in la la land, which is no doubt where all those scary Commies are residing.

How are you going to get giant corporations to allow small businesses a fair chance to compete? Why would you even dream that such "free enterprise" was even vaguely possible? We live in oligarchic quasi-democracies and you hired Trump to FYUTA and that's what he's doing.

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:13 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:04 pmThose like you and Greta believe our essential rights are created by the Great Beast...

I'm still not entirely clear what you mean by "the Great Beast". Could you go through it again, please?

The Great Beast is society itself

From Simone Weil's Gravity and Grace:

The Great Beast [society, the collective] is the only object of idolatry, the only ersatz of God, the only imitation of something which is infinitely far from me and which is I myself.

It is impossible for me to take myself as an end or, in consequence, my fellow man as an end, since he is my fellow. Nor can I take a material thing, because matter is still less capable of having finality conferred upon it than human beings are.

Only one thing can be taken as an end, for in relation to the human person it possesses a kind of transcendence: this is the collective.

Simone Weil gets the term "Great Beast" from Plato. Specifically, this passage from Book VI of his Republic (here Plato critiques those who are "wise" through their study of society):

I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him--he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes...

The individual seeks to become free of the influence of the Great Beast living in Plato's cave having the grand collective as its God. The true individual seeks "to be." The Alinsky mind denies the individual and strives to establlsh the collective As the new God eliminating the need to experience what freedom from cave life means.. To be or not to be really is the question. The Great Beast, the grand collective offers the wold. Is it worth sacrificing the need "to be?"

Here is an example of a woman who has profited from a progressive education to such a degree that she would have made Alinsky proud. She has found her purpose in life and her agenda has given her the gift of meaning. What else could be asked for from a progressive education?

A professor at Georgetown University known for making incendiary comments against supporters of President Donald Trump said white men deserve “miserable deaths” for supporting Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh.

C. Christine Fair, an associate professor at Georgetown in the School of Foreign Service, tweeted Saturday, saying white Republican men should die and an added bonus would be if women “castrate their corpses and feed them to swine.”

Not the ideal fantasy BJ. that's for sure.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:48 am Here is an example of a woman who has profited from a progressive education to such a degree that she would have made Alinsky proud. She has found her purpose in life and her agenda has given her the gift of meaning. What else could be asked for from a progressive education?

A professor at Georgetown University known for making incendiary comments against supporters of President Donald Trump said white men deserve “miserable deaths” for supporting Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh.

C. Christine Fair, an associate professor at Georgetown in the School of Foreign Service, tweeted Saturday, saying white Republican men should die and an added bonus would be if women “castrate their corpses and feed them to swine.”

Not the ideal fantasy BJ. that's for sure.

Here is an example of a woman who has profited from a lack of education to such a degree that she would make Nick and Reflux proud:

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:27 amSimone Weil gets the term "Great Beast" from Plato. Specifically, this passage from Book VI of his Republic

The thing is, Plato's Republic is a manifesto for creating a state which is governed by unelected 'philosopher kings' who are encouraged by Plato to tell 'myths' to the hoi polloi, including that there are three types of human, gold, silver and iron and that therefore, there is a natural hierarchy that keeps the people who have power in power. There's also the blatant lie that men and women's partners will be decided by lot, but the system is to be rigged so that everyone will be compelled to marry whatever misfit the philosopher kings think suitable, thereby making sure that 'good blood' doesn't get contaminated with 'bad blood'. Then of course, there is the Myth of Er, with which the Republic closes. It is a resurrection myth, like Christianity, which describes the medieval vision of hell, that was only introduced to the bible in the new testament, which was written 400 years after the Republic. For the best part of 2 millennia, the political reality in Europe based on the Christianity which Plato largely inspired was the Great Beast.
Until fairly recently, anyone pointing this out would have been up before the Inquisition, found guilty, tortured and possibly executed. That we no longer do this in the west, I would suggest, is progress, and the idea of going back to that seems like a really bad idea to people like me.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:48 am

C. Christine Fair, an associate professor at Georgetown in the School of Foreign Service, tweeted Saturday, saying white Republican men should die and an added bonus would be if women “castrate their corpses and feed them to swine.”

Not the ideal fantasy BJ. that's for sure.

Well yeah, some people are batshit crazy.

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:38 pm Well yeah, but then Trump promised to eliminate national debt in 8 years and grow the economy by 6% a year. Sounds great and maybe some people believed him, maybe even Trump did, but it isn't happening and isn't going to. Dunno if you have the same joke in the US:
How do you know if a politician is lying?
His lips move.

That joke is true in the sense that anybody is a liar to somebody.

Once the paradigm that all politicians lie is accepted as absolute then hypocrisy lights up. Truth automatically gets forsaken as the baseline for evaluating a politician, and then truth becomes a trusty twisty tool for attacking.

The baseline becomes other things, but mainly, it becomes how shameless and slick of a liar is the politician, and how well the politician can brand others for lying, even if they’re not. This appeals to Alinskites, it's part of their rules.

Often in place of truth the baseline is the ability to bring home the bacon. Most every public works project in West Virginia has the name Senator Byrd attached to it, and they have some of the smoothest roads in the country. Ever wonder why Nancy Pelosi persists as a party-leader? She is a multi-millionaire and brings home the bacon from her financial peers, for the party.

For truth mongers, it helps to fathom what politicians should say about events, before they say it. And after they say it, evaluate if what they did say is true.

In the absence of facts, think. Anybody with a basic grasp of arithmetic and flim-flam knew that Obama was lying about Obamacare before the bill was railroaded through Congress.

Re: economic growth:
It was said by the experts that what has happened, would not happen.

Trump did set high expectations.

Folks will just have to settle for unprecedented, remarkable, record-breaking, and other superlatives, not that you'll hear such objectivity from the Leftist press. From Obama’s economy to 6% growth in two years, which includes the time setting up shop to turn the Titanic ship-of-state around, while dealing with Leftist obstruction, would be Ludicrous Speed, it would be flat out denied and there would be Congressional investigations simply on the basis of the number itself.

uwot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:07 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:48 am

C. Christine Fair, an associate professor at Georgetown in the School of Foreign Service, tweeted Saturday, saying white Republican men should die and an added bonus would be if women “castrate their corpses and feed them to swine.”

Not the ideal fantasy BJ. that's for sure.

Well yeah, some people are batshit crazy.

A professor isn't just "some people."

People listen to professors, and senators, and look to them for meaning, plus professors mainly influence the young and fragile minds of college men and women who are not taught how to live amongst diversity of thought-speech.

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:32 amThe baseline becomes other things, but mainly, it becomes how shameless and slick of a liar is the politician, and how well the politician can brand others for lying, even if they’re not.

So is your point that Trump is to be preferred because he isn't a slick liar?

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:32 amTrump did set high expectations.

Folks will just have to settle for unprecedented, remarkable, record-breaking, and other superlatives, not that you'll hear such objectivity from the Leftist press.

Well, 4.1% over a single quarter isn't bad, but it doesn't yet compare with the 5.1% or the other 3 times that economic growth exceeded 4.1% during Obama's administration. Politicians everywhere always blame the previous administration. Who knows, maybe Trump really will make America's economy great again, but far from reducing debt, his current policies are going to add over $5 trillion.

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:51 am A professor isn't just "some people."

People listen to professors, and senators, and look to them for meaning...

Dunno if you've ever met any actual people, but what you will find is that overwhelmingly they listen to professors and senators who say what they already think.

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:51 am...plus professors mainly influence the young and fragile minds of college men and women who are not taught how to live amongst diversity of thought-speech.

So where are people taught to do that?

Uncouth and snark, single or in combination, do measure up to Alinsky specifications. So you're doing a good job either in your emulation, or like-mindedness with the Lucifer dedicator.

*

Re: Lying Alinskites

Senator Blumenthal, Democrat and Kavanaugh attacker in the current news, recently lectured Judge Kavanaugh on the legal principle of Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

Blumenthal himself is guilty of stolen valor, something taken seriously in the USA. In lecturing Kavanaugh he provided a remarkably stark demonstration of how the tragic unmooring from truth is one of the leading causes of huge chronic blind spots.

Re: numbers
The economy was tanking under Obama. It's thriving under Trump. Obama isn't a reliable source on this one.

During Obama, businesses contracted to survive and when possible, hid money.

Now the resources and investments are emerging.
Not the Democrat definition of investment.
In the US, Alinskites redefined investment to mean, paying taxes.

uwot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:10 amSo where are people taught to do that?

Where do you think?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:25 pm I grow up from my study of those who have transcended the debate over whose momma sucks and have become concerned with the great questions concerning the meaning and purpose of human being the depths of philosophy invite us to ponder.

Alinskites are free from the constraints of morality and decency, while simultaneously hoisting decent folks with their own petard, to reference the bard.

What Alinskites hate the most are non-Alinskites who know their methods and use their methods against them. Although, perhaps from a different horizon they love this the most, which makes sense when translating the rules in light of the Luciferfied introduction.

Why should non-Alinskites be constrained by morality?

No reason, other than the fear of karmic repercussions for lying, cheating, misrepresenting, defaming, destroying … all the means near and dear to Alinskities that they consider to be necessary.

As evidenced by effect, if not philosophically then with another kind of understanding, Trump understands that limitations are delusions.

This understanding is part of how he is exposing The Loony-Tunes Left, while achieving his campaign objectives.