Philosophy Now Forum

Islam and Judaism are identical theologically.

same dogma, same God.

deal with it.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:33 am Agreed, I am a bad communicator and I certainly do NOT fault you for not understanding my point.
I purposely write in a deceptively and manipulating way. I write NOT necessarily to point out and show you things. I write to point out, show, and prove things with and by the responses I get. YOUR words are MY evidence.

I am not going to waste my time if the above is your intention.
I suggest you discuss in a direct manner instead of beating around the bush.
I must say most of your responses above are below par in terms of what is 'normal' discussion.
"YOUR words are MY evidence."

Regarding the evil laden verses in the Quran, you asked for one or as many as possible.
I have given you a list of the 'many' which is obviously better than one verse. Surely you have the normal intelligence and rationality to understand 'one' in this case is ineffective as a representation of the issue?

Btw, I have asked you, show me how many verses of the Quran's 6236 verses are favorable to the outgroup unconditionally?

Btw, are you a Muslim.
Again, have you read the Quran and how intensively?
"YOUR words are MY evidence."

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:41 am Islam and Judaism are identical theologically.

same dogma, same God.

deal with it.

True as far as the evil elements are concern and there are similarity in the doctrines but there are significant differences as well.

It is claimed the quantum of evil elements in the Torah is worst than the Quran but there is a difference as judged by the terrible evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims and Jews throughout history.

Somehow the Torah do not have a very strong stranglehold on the Jews in comparison to the the Quran have a total stranglehold on the Muslims especially the evil prone Muslims.

I have stated there should not be any evil elements in any religious texts especially theistic religions where God imposes on all believers.

Re the Torah, one reason I have read is the evil elements [not to be condoned] in the Torah as related to stories to convey some messages but they are not commands of God that is obligatory that Jews must comply with.
On the other hand the most of evil elements in the Quran are sanctioned by Allah as obligatory commands which others influence the believers. Note this command,

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

"l-qitālu" is translated as 'warfare' but the Arabic meaning is imbued with an element of aggression.

The other reason why the evil elements in the Torah [need to be condemned] are the lesser evil in comparison to Islam's is Judaism do not have the mission to proselytize its religion thus a lesser potential and widespread of its evil elements.

Btw, I have stated many times, ALL evil acts and potential must be addressed in the long run and reduced to the minimal but there is need to prioritize due to limited resources at present.

I'll reply to you post above in time.

first wish to say that you do not seem objective in your view if Islam and so i will not have any interest discussing it with you as long as you remain biased.

as for the Torah - most if it like the Koran i find lacking, in fact the only story worth a damn in the Torah is the one about Isaac as human sacrifice. the story is in there for a reason (reason being Jews must have killed kids to appease YHWH in olden times - author of this story was saying that is not right nor needed anymore - a ram will do).

the Minor Prophets works - esp Amos and Jonah and Job (for myself) are 100 times better themes/theology than that of the the Torah.

those works put the Torah to sham IMO.

most of the koran - as i stated many times before - is lesser and equal to the torah, but some works in it are better and worthy of note.

- just as some the Minor Prophet works are.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:41 am Islam and Judaism are identical theologically.

same dogma, same God.

deal with it.

True as far as the evil elements are concern and there are similarity in the doctrines but there are significant differences as well.

such as?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am It is claimed the quantum of evil elements in the Torah is worst than the Quran

note heard this. who make this claim?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am but there is a difference as judged by the terrible evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims and Jews throughout history.

I don't care about actions, i care about theologies.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am Somehow the Torah do not have a very strong stranglehold on the Jews in comparison to the the Quran have a total stranglehold on the Muslims especially the evil prone Muslims.

tell that to the 400,000 palistinians under the thumb of Judiac Settlers! - who degrade/deny human dignity and even rights to non-jews living a mile down the road - in the name of their Torah and God YHWH.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am I have stated there should not be any evil elements in any religious texts especially theistic religions where God imposes on all believers.

Re the Torah, one reason I have read is the evil elements [not to be condoned] in the Torah as related to stories to convey some messages but they are not commands of God that is obligatory that Jews must comply with.
On the other hand the most of evil elements in the Quran are sanctioned by Allah as obligatory commands which others influence the believers. Note this command,

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

"l-qitālu" is translated as 'warfare' but the Arabic meaning is imbued with an element of aggression.

yes,a filthy theology.

there is another one also - in both the Koran and the Torah - "a hardening of the heart of Pharaoh" (denial of freewill - i.e. God will make some folks do evil to oppress Believers for His reasons.


refer to YHWH using Assyrains to raise Jurusalem, and the Babylonians to likewise, and destroy 1st temple and inslave 20- percent of the jews for 70 yrs.

all YHWH's plan per theology of Torah's YHWH to "correct" the wayward jews of the time.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am The other reason why the evil elements in the Torah [need to be condemned] are the lesser evil in comparison to Islam's is Judaism do not have the mission to proselytize its religion thus a lesser potential and widespread of its evil elements.

OK - i grant you this. but again this is "Actions" - which i do not care about. not theology.

the only reason Jews did not proselytize (they DID - Paul was one of them - between 10-70 AD) is because the Romans did a whoop ass on Jerusalem, and demoralized them for 2 milllia hense.

not relavent to the theology of either Islam or Judiasm (which are identical).

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am Btw, I have stated many times, ALL evil acts and potential must be addressed in the long run and reduced to the minimal but there is need to prioritize due to limited resources at present.

your bias is in denial of the "Cafeteria Muslim" (moderate) - you deny/ignore them and think all of them are fundies and that this is some sort of global world war of religions.

i've not time nor interest in your mindset.

i affirm than most muslims are moderates and my brother in the war against tribal bloodshed.

unlike you it seems.

Everyone has their "Dark age" - europe had it 900 yrs ago.....when ironically the Arabians were in the light.

today it is opposite.

the "problem of islam" is not due to thier religion, but due to their dark age in that region of the globe today.

the solution is Cokacola (soft power/pop culture), not armies nor villanizing thier religion.

armies of invasion (Iraqnam anyone?) - only feeds the Dark Age beast.

pull your panties up - stop with the fear - take a breath, and support the influence of soft power and the reasonable muslims living in those lands (they are the majority!).

time you support them in their war - instead of villanizing/alienating them as not one of us!

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:33 am Agreed, I am a bad communicator and I certainly do NOT fault you for not understanding my point.
I purposely write in a deceptively and manipulating way. I write NOT necessarily to point out and show you things. I write to point out, show, and prove things with and by the responses I get. YOUR words are MY evidence.

I am not going to waste my time if the above is your intention.
I suggest you discuss in a direct manner instead of beating around the bush.

I have discussed in a direct manner. You are, at the moment, just completely incapable of understanding it. You claim that the ideology of islam is evil intent because islam (supposedly) says to kill people who are non-believers. I, for example, in direct manner have said, "Killing a person is possible without in any way harming, injuring, nor damaging the human body". How much more direct do you want?

Now if you want to discuss this, then discuss. But if you just want to keep insisting that the quran is laden with evil intent and the ideology of islam is evil, then keep doing so. But without any evidence of or for this, then you are just wasting your energy.

The word 'islam' comes from or is very closely related to, or if not, meaning peace, and the word 'muslim' is very closely related to, or if not, meaning submitting to, surrendering to, or following 'Allah', which obviously the words of would be peace. God/Allah, by definition, is good for ALL things, not just some.

I have already questioned you about how can any thing so closely related to, or if not, meaning peace and good, itself, have any thing whatsoever to do with evil and bad. You have convinced yourself and you are now trying to convince others that the quran tells the followers of peace, that is muslims, to kill non-followers of peace, that is non-muslims, with the intent of hurting, injuring, or harming another human body. If you are so blinded by your distorted views that you can not see the contradiction and irony of this, then so be it. But just because you keep repeating what you believe is true, does not make it true. I have already explained that you are looking at and seeing things through already distorted and prejudiced views.

I will say again, just for you, it is very simple to kill a person without even touching a human body.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 amI must say most of your responses above are below par in terms of what is 'normal' discussion.

My point shown and proven, once again here with your words.

You have a view of what is 'normal', and thus any thing above, below, outside, or beyond your view of 'normal' would therefore be 'not normal', correct?

You actually believe that your views are true, right, and correct, and every thing else outside of this is false, wrong, and incorrect.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 am"YOUR words are MY evidence."

Regarding the evil laden verses in the Quran, you asked for one or as many as possible.
I have given you a list of the 'many' which is obviously better than one verse. Surely you have the normal intelligence and rationality to understand 'one' in this case is ineffective as a representation of the issue?[/quote]

One or all is the same to me. I have been asking you to post just one, which means just pick one and write it down, so that we can at least look at that, and then discuss. Seeing as though you are incapable of doing so or you are not willing to, then I will. Once verse in the quran is:
27:76 Surely this Koran explains to the Children of Israel most of the issues upon which they disagree.
Certainly it is a guide and a mercy for those who believe. Surely your Lord will use His wisdom to judge
between them. He is the mighty and the all-knowing. So put your trust in Allah. Surely, you are on the path
to the plain truth.

Now where is the evil intent?

How is that laden with evil?

Remember you were NOT willing to post one so I had to. I just picked the first one i found out of YOUR given list. I would much prefer you pick one, or many, and post them here like I have, and then you tell us all what you actually see and read in that text. That way you can not suggest that I am picking and choosing the texts to look at.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 amBtw, I have asked you, show me how many verses of the Quran's 6236 verses are favorable to the outgroup unconditionally?

If I recall correctly you NEVER asked me to show you how many ... But what you did ask me was how many of them are ....? Which i replied to you was ALL OF THEM.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 amBtw, are you a Muslim.

When you are able to accurately define 'muslim', then I will answer your question.

Although to tell you the truth I already KNOW what the answer WILL BE.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 amAgain, have you read the Quran and how intensively?

Do you mean have I read as much as you and as intensively as you believe you have, and, with the exact same prejudices and distorted views that you have? If that is what you mean, then the answer is a very strong NO.

But, the truth is, I do NOT need to read what you have to already be able to see and KNOW the depth of distortion and prejudices in the way you look at and see things. You have already proven this fact.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 am"YOUR words are MY evidence."

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:41 am Islam and Judaism are identical theologically.

same dogma, same God.

deal with it.

True as far as the evil elements are concern and there are similarity in the doctrines but there are significant differences as well.

It is claimed the quantum of evil elements in the Torah is worst than the Quran but there is a difference as judged by the terrible evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims and Jews throughout history.

Somehow the Torah do not have a very strong stranglehold on the Jews in comparison to the the Quran have a total stranglehold on the Muslims especially the evil prone Muslims.

I have stated there should not be any evil elements in any religious texts especially theistic religions where God imposes on all believers.

There are NONE. You are just seeing evil elements where there are NONE.

I will say this again, write down here one of those supposed evil element in any religious text, explain to us how you see it as being evil, then we can at least look at it and then discuss.

By definition any thing to do with a God does NOT have evil intent towards ANY ONE.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 amRe the Torah, one reason I have read is the evil elements [not to be condoned] in the Torah as related to stories to convey some messages but they are not commands of God that is obligatory that Jews must comply with.
On the other hand the most of evil elements in the Quran are sanctioned by Allah as obligatory commands which others influence the believers. Note this command,

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

"l-qitālu" is translated as 'warfare' but the Arabic meaning is imbued with an element of aggression.

The other reason why the evil elements in the Torah [need to be condemned] are the lesser evil in comparison to Islam's is Judaism do not have the mission to proselytize its religion thus a lesser potential and widespread of its evil elements.

Btw, I have stated many times, ALL evil acts and potential must be addressed in the long run and reduced to the minimal but there is need to prioritize due to limited resources at present.

Sounds like you are trying your best to justify your own evil actions, but obviously it is NOT working because I, for one, can see straight through your attempts.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:59 am
27:76 Surely this Koran explains to the Children of Israel most of the issues upon which they disagree.
Certainly it is a guide and a mercy for those who believe. Surely your Lord will use His wisdom to judge
between them. He is the mighty and the all-knowing. So put your trust in Allah. Surely, you are on the path
to the plain truth.

Now where is the evil intent?

sorry to but in.

noted your above and wish to discuss.

see no evil above.

seems like wisdom to me. "leave judging the jewish faction's doctrinal disputes up to Allah to judge" not for men to.

a very Humble view and one i concur with.(though an Atheist).

I value Humility

I see you are new to the forum; welcome.

unlike Veritas, i do have a fundamental understanding of the seven or so Muslims today.

Sunni (and the sub-factions), Shia, Allowite (they think they are Shia, Shia dissagree (aka similar to our Mormans), Sufi (not sure if they are Sunni or Shia techincally? - do you know?), Ahmadiyya (also similar to our Mormans - revering a latter Prophet others in religion do not).

oh and BTW "12vers" is a disparaging term Sunnis use all to often for Shia.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am unlike Veritas, i do have a fundamental understanding of the seven or so Muslims today.

Sunni (and the sub-factions), Shia, Allowite (they think they are Shia, Shia dissagree (aka similar to our Mormans), Sufi (not sure if they are Sunni or Shia techincally? - do you know?), Ahmadiyya (also similar to our Mormans - revering a latter Prophet others in religion do not).

oh and BTW "12vers" is a disparaging term Sunnis use all to often for Shia.

Hi,

I do not like to get bogged down with all of this. I have no idea about minor nor specific details of things.

I am just trying to point out to veritas that the reason they see so much evil intent is because of the way they are looking at it. That is their already gained views are distorting the way they look at and see things. Any one can read into any thing and see whatever they like to and want to see. ALL adults do this. We do it because we want to see a picture that already fits in with and suits our already held views, and beliefs. No one likes to see that what does not fit our own picture of things.

I was just trying to explain that I could read EVERY religious text and NOT see one shred of, what is generally known as, 'evil' or negative intent in there. But that is not because if there actually is any, good or bad in there, either way, but solely because I look at and see things differently from ALL others. The truth is we ALL do.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:41 am Islam and Judaism are identical theologically.

same dogma, same God.

deal with it.

True as far as the evil elements are concern and there are similarity in the doctrines but there are significant differences as well.

It is claimed the quantum of evil elements in the Torah is worst than the Quran but there is a difference as judged by the terrible evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims and Jews throughout history.

Somehow the Torah do not have a very strong stranglehold on the Jews in comparison to the the Quran have a total stranglehold on the Muslims especially the evil prone Muslims.

I have stated there should not be any evil elements in any religious texts especially theistic religions where God imposes on all believers.

There are NONE. You are just seeing evil elements where there are NONE.

I will say this again, write down here one of those supposed evil element in any religious text, explain to us how you see it as being evil, then we can at least look at it and then discuss.

By definition any thing to do with a God does NOT have evil intent towards ANY ONE.

I find your views are very naive and child-liked.

Definition of God?
Is there a real God to be defined?
Note my thread on;

God is an Impossibility
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704
Prove me wrong on this?

God is defined as an emergent idea [not concept] and an illusion which is falsely claimed as real. This emergent idea is driven by a VERY desperate existential psychological force within humans.

The idea of God is an illusion and the supposedly holy texts [immutable or otherwise] from a God are created by someone or a group of men just like how the Mein Kampf came about.

DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil acts.
20% of all humans are 'unfortunately' born with an active tendency to commit evil acts.

Theistic religions are created by humans but due to the strong and active inherent nature of evil within SOME humans, some religious doctrine and ideology are infected with evil elements. The worst of this evil laden religion is Islam as evident in its 'holy' i.e. the Quran which represent its core ideology.

I have given evidence of various sets of evil laden verses in the Quran that had inspired and motivated SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts and violence in the name of God and their religion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:04 amRe the Torah, one reason I have read is the evil elements [not to be condoned] in the Torah as related to stories to convey some messages but they are not commands of God that is obligatory that Jews must comply with.
On the other hand the most of evil elements in the Quran are sanctioned by Allah as obligatory commands which others influence the believers. Note this command,

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

"l-qitālu" is translated as 'warfare' but the Arabic meaning is imbued with an element of aggression.

The other reason why the evil elements in the Torah [need to be condemned] are the lesser evil in comparison to Islam's is Judaism do not have the mission to proselytize its religion thus a lesser potential and widespread of its evil elements.

Btw, I have stated many times, ALL evil acts and potential must be addressed in the long run and reduced to the minimal but there is need to prioritize due to limited resources at present.

Sounds like you are trying your best to justify your own evil actions, but obviously it is NOT working because I, for one, can see straight through your attempts.

Why should I bother with your reply?

I don't rely on ONE or two verses but take the whole of the Quran and all its related elements [history, psychology, neuro-psychology, neurosciences, social, etc.] into account.

I suggest you start a thread like 'Islam is Not Evil' and provide all your evidences and proof to justify your claim.

Note by Abductive and Inductive reasoning, it is so obvious there is a causal relation between the terrible evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims and the ideology of Islam.
I have provided clues [listing of evil laden verses] and discussed briefly but not in detail yet on how the terrible evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims has a direct link to the ideology of Islam via its evil laden elements.

Btw, what authority do you or any human have to judge on behalf of Allah that you are right and those who carry out their divine duty [with consequences of evil as defined] to please God is wrong?

Age wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:37 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am unlike Veritas, i do have a fundamental understanding of the seven or so Muslims today.

Sunni (and the sub-factions), Shia, Allowite (they think they are Shia, Shia dissagree (aka similar to our Mormans), Sufi (not sure if they are Sunni or Shia techincally? - do you know?), Ahmadiyya (also similar to our Mormans - revering a latter Prophet others in religion do not).

oh and BTW "12vers" is a disparaging term Sunnis use all to often for Shia.

Hi,

I do not like to get bogged down with all of this. I have no idea about minor nor specific details of things.

I am just trying to point out to veritas that the reason they see so much evil intent is because of the way they are looking at it. That is their already gained views are distorting the way they look at and see things. Any one can read into any thing and see whatever they like to and want to see. ALL adults do this. We do it because we want to see a picture that already fits in with and suits our already held views, and beliefs. No one likes to see that what does not fit our own picture of things.

I was just trying to explain that I could read EVERY religious text and NOT see one shred of, what is generally known as, 'evil' or negative intent in there. But that is not because if there actually is any, good or bad in there, either way, but solely because I look at and see things differently from ALL others. The truth is we ALL do.

howdy, i understand.

a man's character (nature) is outside/under/etc his codex of theology.

per example/not to single out - there are millions of decent Salifists - though .0001 behead Shia for not being Sunni.

you a Muslim? (none my business - curious).

I welcome discussion of Islam - including it several sects - not for Truth - just as an intellectual exercise.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am unlike Veritas, i do have a fundamental understanding of the seven or so Muslims today.

Sunni (and the sub-factions), Shia, Allowite (they think they are Shia, Shia dissagree (aka similar to our Mormans), Sufi (not sure if they are Sunni or Shia techincally? - do you know?), Ahmadiyya (also similar to our Mormans - revering a latter Prophet others in religion do not).

oh and BTW "12vers" is a disparaging term Sunnis use all to often for Shia.

What is critical to the topic of Islam is its core ideology, i.e. the 6236 verses of the Quran.

It is not difficult to obtain knowledge of the main schools and sects of Islam to discuss any related points if necessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_s ... d_branches

https://informationisbeautiful.net/visu ... movements/
this had very good details.