Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:07 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:44 am
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:59 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:27 am when the average person's IQ, EQ, MQ [moral], SQ[spiritual], PQ [philosophical wisdom], has increased significantly to an effective level.
Would that happen, most people would automatically stop being theists and turn to more "black-box" type approaches.

But humans would have to be genetically modified for that on an extremely high level, maybe that could be possible worldwide in 100-200 years.

The only other method I can think of is damaging the left temporal lobe, which can in some cases unlock savant-like abilities in normal people. But it can have serious drawbacks, especially with sensory processing and coordination.
I agree, it will not happen now, but there is the potential of possibility within the next 50 years? if not 75 or >100.

Not genetically modified, that is too dangerous as the next phase.
There will not be any damage to any parts of the brain at all.
What is expected is to enhance the strength of the existing and trigger new inhibitors and activators.

For example, a baby is born with certain very loose connections and they get connected soon after birth, e.g. self-awareness at around 2 years old and other connectivities happen even during puberty.

Therefore there are opportunities for the neurons to be rewired during a person's lifetime.

There loads of training available at present for example, impulse controls, getting rid of phobias, and other self-developing programs, e.g. Neuro-linguistic Programming. Learning new knowledge and skills involve new connections and rewiring of the neurons.
For example, in the case of striving to be the best in sports, most coaches are very familiar with the necessary specific training to rewire the specific motor neurons [albeit in a black box approach] and other faculties to produce good sport people.

Thus what I am discussing is the understanding of the precise neural network involve in the workings of the existential crisis and its effects [especially negative ones]. From there we develop methods and techniques [fool proof] to strengthen the relevant inhibitors and activators to modulate the impulses of the existential crisis to prevent them triggering paths that leads to evil acts.

No combination of these current methods can significantly increase IQ, EQ, MQ, and especially not all three at once. Basically such an enhancment can only come from genetic engineering on a level that is unimaginable right now.

Even if you condition most of them not to act out on an existential crisis too much, you can't get rid of the evil caused by stupidity, ignorance, amorality etc. The average human can only be brainwashed and slightly enhanced, which is why every such enhancment idea throughout history has largely failed.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 am**

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:07 am No combination of these current methods can significantly increase IQ, EQ, MQ, and especially not all three at once. Basically such an enhancment can only come from genetic engineering on a level that is unimaginable right now.

Even if you condition most of them not to act out on an existential crisis too much, you can't get rid of the evil caused by stupidity, ignorance, amorality etc. The average human can only be brainwashed and slightly enhanced, which is why every such enhancment idea throughout history has largely failed.

At I had stated the current methods are based on the black-box approach without a detailed understanding of what is going inside the box precisely.

In the future, we will be able to understand the mechanics and process inside the black-box and avoid the hit & miss and the trial & error methods.
Note the Human Connectome Project to map all the circuits in the human brain which is progressing at present.

http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
The Human Connectome Project
Navigate the brain in a way that was never before possible; fly through major brain pathways, compare essential circuits, zoom into a region to explore the cells that comprise it, and the functions that depend on it.

The Human Connectome Project aims to provide an unparalleled compilation of neural data, an interface to graphically navigate this data and the opportunity to achieve never before realized conclusions about the living human brain.

In addition to understanding the existential dilemma that leads to theism, humanity will also be studying the precise neural mechanisms that trigger people to commit evil. Humanity will also work toward inhibiting and modulating these evil prone impulses effectively.

Note Aristotle's

Anybody can become angry - that is easy,
but to be angry
with the right person and
to the right degree and
at the right time and
for the right purpose, and
in the right way -

that is not within everybody's power and is not easy.

in future, Aristotle's above proposal and challenge will be made easy and spontaneous.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:54 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 am In addition to understanding the existential dilemma that leads to theism, humanity will also be studying the precise neural mechanisms that trigger people to commit evil. Humanity will also work toward inhibiting and modulating these evil prone impulses effectively.

It's pretty well understood now that by and large, our nervous system can't be rewired much after a young age (and not much in general). Why are you so certain that such modulations will be possible without heavy genetic engineering?

Besides a lot of evil comes from the lack of various froms of empathy, and stupidity, ignorance; inhibition methods don't work on that.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:05 am**

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:54 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 am In addition to understanding the existential dilemma that leads to theism, humanity will also be studying the precise neural mechanisms that trigger people to commit evil. Humanity will also work toward inhibiting and modulating these evil prone impulses effectively.
It's pretty well understood now that by and large, our nervous system can't be rewired much after a young age (and not much in general). Why are you so certain that such modulations will be possible without heavy genetic engineering?

Besides a lot of evil comes from the lack of various froms of empathy, and stupidity, ignorance; inhibition methods don't work on that.

It is only those neural connectivity that are hardwired [re primal instincts] which are difficult to be rewired by conscious and various means.

Actually the neurons [those has high plasticity] are rewired all the times.
When one learn something new, the brain is rewired.
As I had stated a sport person who had improved from beginner to amateur to being a professional player would definitely have his brain rewired during the phases of progress.
A person who had a phobia and got cured from that phobia would also have had his brain rewired in respect of the relevant neurons.

The human brain has on average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses [connectors]. So imaging the potential permutation of connections between these connectors.

As I had stated those neuronal sets that are hardwired are difficult to be rewired [at least in the near future] but those middle level inhibitor and activator neurons [like those related to phobias] should be able to be rewired with time and training with the help of the latest and advancing knowledge and technology.
Note as evident this is progressing implicitly within humanity but we need to make it explicitly and expedite the processes.

As I had stated DNA wise ALL humans are already embedded with the potential for an existential crisis and also the potential to commit terrible evils.

There is a thread "Do you have the urge to kill?"
We hear of many people having the urge to kill in various circumstances and degrees but they do not carry the killing. It is the same with rape, steal and all sorts of various acts.
In these cases of restraint there must be something in the brain that is activated to stop them from going further to actualize their evil intentions.
Thus humanity must strive to understand the details of such inhibitors that triggers such restraints, e.g. like impulse control ability, conscience, guilt, and many others relevant aspects to the issue.

I am optimistic, with a greater understanding of the neural processes and mechanics of the existential crisis and its linkage to God and also to the potential to evil acts, humanity will be able to prevent evil acts to a continually decreasing optimal minimal.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:22 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:05 am
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:54 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 am In addition to understanding the existential dilemma that leads to theism, humanity will also be studying the precise neural mechanisms that trigger people to commit evil. Humanity will also work toward inhibiting and modulating these evil prone impulses effectively.
It's pretty well understood now that by and large, our nervous system can't be rewired much after a young age (and not much in general). Why are you so certain that such modulations will be possible without heavy genetic engineering?

Besides a lot of evil comes from the lack of various froms of empathy, and stupidity, ignorance; inhibition methods don't work on that.
It is only those neural connectivity that are hardwired [re primal instincts] which are difficult to be rewired by conscious and various means.

Actually the neurons [those has high plasticity] are rewired all the times.
When one learn something new, the brain is rewired.
As I had stated a sport person who had improved from beginner to amateur to being a professional player would definitely have his brain rewired during the phases of progress.
A person who had a phobia and got cured from that phobia would also have had his brain rewired in respect of the relevant neurons.

The human brain has on average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses [connectors]. So imaging the potential permutation of connections between these connectors.

As I had stated those neuronal sets that are hardwired are difficult to be rewired [at least in the near future] but those middle level inhibitor and activator neurons [like those related to phobias] should be able to be rewired with time and training with the help of the latest and advancing knowledge and technology.
Note as evident this is progressing implicitly within humanity but we need to make it explicitly and expedite the processes.

As I had stated DNA wise ALL humans are already embedded with the potential for an existential crisis and also the potential to commit terrible evils.

There is a thread "Do you have the urge to kill?"
We hear of many people having the urge to kill in various circumstances and degrees but they do not carry the killing. It is the same with rape, steal and all sorts of various acts.
In these cases of restraint there must be something in the brain that is activated to stop them from going further to actualize their evil intentions.
Thus humanity must strive to understand the details of such inhibitors that triggers such restraints, e.g. like impulse control ability, conscience, guilt, and many others relevant aspects to the issue.

I am optimistic, with a greater understanding of the neural processes and mechanics of the existential crisis and its linkage to God and also to the potential to evil acts, humanity will be able to prevent evil acts to a continually decreasing optimal minimal.

You seem to vastly overestimate neuroplasticity. For example it is well understood now that most personality disorders can't be "fixed", only managed (sometimes not even managed). Because not just the primal instincts, but also the slight or not so slight individual variations in the structure of the brain/mind, are hardwired at an early age and in most cases remain like that for life. (Even seasonal effects on the human body during pregnancy and shortly after birth, tend to remain hardwired for life.)

A technology that could reach into the brain/mind and properly rewire these things doesn't exist right now, and probably won't in the next 50-100 years either. It might after that, though, but I think even genetic engineering would be simpler than this, and would also fix the other problems like low intelligence.

Inhibition of impulses in most people could be done in addition to this, though.

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:14 am**

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:22 am You seem to vastly overestimate neuroplasticity. For example it is well understood now that most personality disorders can't be "fixed", only managed (sometimes not even managed). Because not just the primal instincts, but also the slight or not so slight individual variations in the structure of the brain/mind, are hardwired at an early age and in most cases remain like that for life. (Even seasonal effects on the human body during pregnancy and shortly after birth, tend to remain hardwired for life.)

That is my point.
The essential fundamental functions of life which also caused the side effect of an existential crisis cannot be fixed or preferably not to be disturbed.
However the impulses of the side effect, i.e. the existential crisis, can be inhibited.

It is just like the pain function which is critical to signal problems for attention to correct and prevent further problems, thus it would be wiser not to get rid of the inherent pain function but rather to modulate it where necessary.
This is why we have specific pain killers [inhibitors] to numb the respective neurons manifesting pain where necessary.
It is same same with the primary emotion of fear. We should not get rid of fear totally but merely to be able to modulate it.

In the case of the existential crisis, it is possible to rely on neuroplasticity to inhibit, i.e. impulse controls [install brakes] via the rewiring of the synapses. I am not venturing into speculating the growth of new neurons in this case.

A technology that could reach into the brain/mind and properly rewire these things doesn't exist right now, and probably won't in the next 50-100 years either. It might after that, though, but I think even genetic engineering would be simpler than this, and would also fix the other problems like low intelligence.

Inhibition of impulses in most people could be done in addition to this, though.

Yes, we do not have the specific knowledge and technology now to get the expected results.
However we do have the foundation and the momentum to get to it in time.
I believe next 50-100 years is possible given the current trend.
In addition, there are already the black-box methods introduced since thousands of years ago to facilitate the modulation of the existential crisis without the need for a belief in God, note Buddhism founded >2500 years ago and others which are earlier.

I see genetic engineering as an option and when we can do it with 100% fool proof that would be ideal.
Problem with genetic engineering is we could create other side effects due to its complexity. Thus it would be more effective to merely improve on the existing structures at the next step.

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:01 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:14 am
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:22 am You seem to vastly overestimate neuroplasticity. For example it is well understood now that most personality disorders can't be "fixed", only managed (sometimes not even managed). Because not just the primal instincts, but also the slight or not so slight individual variations in the structure of the brain/mind, are hardwired at an early age and in most cases remain like that for life. (Even seasonal effects on the human body during pregnancy and shortly after birth, tend to remain hardwired for life.)
That is my point.
The essential fundamental functions of life which also caused the side effect of an existential crisis cannot be fixed or preferably not to be disturbed.
However the impulses of the side effect, i.e. the existential crisis, can be inhibited.

It is just like the pain function which is critical to signal problems for attention to correct and prevent further problems, thus it would be wiser not to get rid of the inherent pain function but rather to modulate it where necessary.
This is why we have specific pain killers [inhibitors] to numb the respective neurons manifesting pain where necessary.
It is same same with the primary emotion of fear. We should not get rid of fear totally but merely to be able to modulate it.

In the case of the existential crisis, it is possible to rely on neuroplasticity to inhibit, i.e. impulse controls [install brakes] via the rewiring of the synapses. I am not venturing into speculating the growth of new neurons in this case.

A technology that could reach into the brain/mind and properly rewire these things doesn't exist right now, and probably won't in the next 50-100 years either. It might after that, though, but I think even genetic engineering would be simpler than this, and would also fix the other problems like low intelligence.

Inhibition of impulses in most people could be done in addition to this, though.
Yes, we do not have the specific knowledge and technology now to get the expected results.
However we do have the foundation and the momentum to get to it in time.
I believe next 50-100 years is possible given the current trend.
In addition, there are already the black-box methods introduced since thousands of years ago to facilitate the modulation of the existential crisis without the need for a belief in God, note Buddhism founded >2500 years ago and others which are earlier.

I see genetic engineering as an option and when we can do it with 100% fool proof that would be ideal.
Problem with genetic engineering is we could create other side effects due to its complexity. Thus it would be more effective to merely improve on the existing structures at the next step.

I'm saying that exactly in many of those cases where it would be most needed, you can't inhibit the impulses or there are no impulses to inhibit, and it won't be possible fix this in the next 50-100 years either. Because the problematic abnormalities that cause "evil" behaviour, are hardwired early in life. This is mostly not a problem to do with existential crises though.

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am**

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:01 am I'm saying that exactly in many of those cases where it would be most needed, you can't inhibit the impulses or there are no impulses to inhibit, and it won't be possible fix this in the next 50-100 years either. Because the problematic abnormalities that cause "evil" behaviour, are hardwired early in life. This is mostly not a problem to do with existential crises though.

I agree, in cases where there is severe damage in the brain, then it would be very tough to make the person normal.
Nevertheless it is still a matter of impulses that need to be inhibited in addition to the damage part of the brain.

Let take the case of a serial rapist.
Such a person may have total lack of impulse control [due to some neural damage or weakness] against his sexual impulses.
In this case Chemical Castration can be used to inhibit the person sexual libido.

Chemical castration is castration via anaphrodisiac drugs, whether to reduce libido and sexual activity, to treat cancer, or otherwise.
wiki

Even for serial killers and psychopathic killers, drug therapy are used to inhibit their evil impulses which also inhibit other impulses in general which turn them into zombies. This sort of black box approach do not work for all and at all times.

Despite the failures, the point is there are inhibitors to be suppressed and the question is finding the exact and precise set of neurons to be inhibited instead of the hit and miss methods. I believe we can track down those specific neurons in the future.

The above are the extreme cases which must be addressed which is not my concern re the above discussion.

I am more concern with average cases and even the goody-two-shoes who could suddenly turned evil by a simple trigger of religious zeal. We hear of many known goody-two-shoes who suddenly appear as the suicide-bomber or Islamist killers out of the blue.

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:04 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am
Atla wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:01 am I'm saying that exactly in many of those cases where it would be most needed, you can't inhibit the impulses or there are no impulses to inhibit, and it won't be possible fix this in the next 50-100 years either. Because the problematic abnormalities that cause "evil" behaviour, are hardwired early in life. This is mostly not a problem to do with existential crises though.
I agree, in cases where there is severe damage in the brain, then it would be very tough to make the person normal.

I think in places with four seasons, such abnormalities affect about 20-40% of the population, not just a very small minority. Near the Equator this isn't really a problem, but there we usually have Islam to do the job, yeah.

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:26 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am I agree, in cases where there is severe damage in the brain, then it would be very tough to make the person normal.
Nevertheless it is still a matter of impulses that need to be inhibited in addition to the damage part of the brain.

Now I'm going to say the most outrageous thing ever: if you want to minimize evil in the world, in addition to banning Islam and Judaism, you must also minimize late autumn / winter / early spring childbirth in places with four seasons. It is necessary.

You see such things aren't possible without a benevolent one world government, which requires smart average people first to be elected, which requires heavy genetic engineering first.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:27 am**

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:26 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am I agree, in cases where there is severe damage in the brain, then it would be very tough to make the person normal.
Nevertheless it is still a matter of impulses that need to be inhibited in addition to the damage part of the brain.
Now I'm going to say the most outrageous thing ever: if you want to minimize evil in the world, in addition to banning Islam and Judaism, you must also minimize late autumn / winter / early spring childbirth in places with four seasons. It is necessary.

If that is a proven theory and if it has to do with the Sun and Earth position which we cannot do anything about, then perhaps we could consider that.
But I think this proposition re seasonal is too far-fetched.

You see such things aren't possible without a benevolent one world government, which requires smart average people first to be elected, which requires heavy genetic engineering first.

I agree with raising the IQ, EQ, wisdom Q, moral Q and whatever relevant Qs of the average person to sustain a critical mass that will do good and do not commit evil acts.
Genetics engineering will be an option but that would be somewhere at the end of the list.

I believe the more tenable option toward the nearer future would be based on the rewiring of existing synapses [connectors] to inhibit/activate and modulate the relevant specific impulses for net-positive results.

At present people are already using certain drugs and supplements to improve their cognitive abilities, e.g. taking coffee to heighten alertness/cognitive ability and there are so called 'smart pills' to make one smarter, e.g.

https://lucid.me/lucid-smart-pill/
Staying motivated and productive is hard, especially when coffee and energy drinks no longer provide that ‘edge’. That’s why we created Lucid Smart Pill, a cognitive supplement designed to help you perform at your peak for a full working day, making you feel sharper and motivated.

The above are the black-box approach, so the next stage of progress is to trace the precise neurons to activate or inhibit the relevant impulses for greater net positive [fool proof] gains.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:08 am**

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:27 am
Atla wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:26 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am I agree, in cases where there is severe damage in the brain, then it would be very tough to make the person normal.
Nevertheless it is still a matter of impulses that need to be inhibited in addition to the damage part of the brain.
Now I'm going to say the most outrageous thing ever: if you want to minimize evil in the world, in addition to banning Islam and Judaism, you must also minimize late autumn / winter / early spring childbirth in places with four seasons. It is necessary.
If that is a proven theory and if it has to do with the Sun and Earth position which we cannot do anything about, then perhaps we could consider that.
But I think this proposition re seasonal is too far-fetched.

You see such things aren't possible without a benevolent one world government, which requires smart average people first to be elected, which requires heavy genetic engineering first.
I agree with raising the IQ, EQ, wisdom Q, moral Q and whatever relevant Qs of the average person to sustain a critical mass that will do good and do not commit evil acts.
Genetics engineering will be an option but that would be somewhere at the end of the list.

I believe the more tenable option toward the nearer future would be based on the rewiring of existing synapses [connectors] to inhibit/activate and modulate the relevant specific impulses for net-positive results.

At present people are already using certain drugs and supplements to improve their cognitive abilities, e.g. taking coffee to heighten alertness/cognitive ability and there are so called 'smart pills' to make one smarter, e.g.

https://lucid.me/lucid-smart-pill/
Staying motivated and productive is hard, especially when coffee and energy drinks no longer provide that ‘edge’. That’s why we created Lucid Smart Pill, a cognitive supplement designed to help you perform at your peak for a full working day, making you feel sharper and motivated.
The above are the black-box approach, so the next stage of progress is to trace the precise neurons to activate or inhibit the relevant impulses for greater net positive [fool proof] gains.

Well, let's agree to disagree then. I think you underestimate the problem of "evil" behaviour in general, and overestimate what neuroscience can do about it in the near future.

I think you are too fixated on one form of evil behaviour, another bad habit picked up probably from Buddhism. (The form of "evil" that's mostly running the planet right now doesn't really operate on the impulses you speak of; inhibiting impulses in normal people would only make them even more exploitable to the masterminds right now.)
I understand that you still try to find a way to save the world, I used to be like that too, but eventually I was forced to concede that there is probably no way to save the world in time. Unfortunately we need some major unforseen miracle(s) to make it. I hope I'm wrong.

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