Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:48 am
So who knows, you may end up a brain surgeon, yet.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:20 am The frightening thing is that those like Greta, Arising, and Harbal etc. are totally unaware of the difference between indoctrination and education. …

They define education as what they like and indoctrination as what they don't like. …

This mindset would not know the difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. …

What could be more superficial? …

As a result the descent into a form of political slavery is inevitable

Dontaskme wrote:...

I have no idea what the morrow brings, but what ever it will bring it will be known now.

Dontaskme wrote:Only a twat would vote for a twat. …

You need to get yourself educated on the skill of knowing there is no difference. ...

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:23 am

Dontaskme wrote:...

I have no idea what the morrow brings, but what ever it will bring it will be known now.

So how come you don't know it now?

"Have you ever thought what would be necessary for you to become an educated man?" what a silly question. I don't set out to get an education like "I'm going to get an education, and after I got it, I will get an ironing board, and after I got the ironing board, next I will get a schnitzel dinner." This is silly! What on Earth possessed you to even ask such a question? I know you as a highly intelligent man, Nick_A, why do you insult yourself with asking such a silly question?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:37 pm -1-

"Have you ever thought what would be necessary for you to become an educated man?" what a silly question. I don't set out to get an education like "I'm going to get an education, and after I got it, I will get an ironing board, and after I got the ironing board, next I will get a schnitzel dinner." This is silly! What on Earth possessed you to even ask such a question? I know you as a highly intelligent man, Nick_A, why do you insult yourself with asking such a silly question?

The question wouldn’t seem so silly if we appreciated why we are not educated men. If how Plato describes education is correct it raises the question of the purpose of education which is to produce educated men. But if we don’t know what an educated person is, then of course education can be nothing other than indoctrination. An educated person experiences the external world while an indoctrinated person interprets it.

That is a thread in itself so I’ll just post an outline. It will probably prove offensive enough to assure it will never appear in a thread.

First of all the purpose of education according to Plato is to turn the soul towards light.

Right away we have a problem. The purpose of modern education is to deny the light and trap the being of Man into enchantment with the shadows on the wall. Spirit killing becomes a means to achieve this goal.

According to Plato the essence of Man is in three separate parts. Taken together they are defined as the tripartite soul: mind, body, and spirit.

The educated man has been educated in these three parts in a way that invites the soul to turn towards the light. Without turning towards the light deductive reason leading to intuition is repulsed. Modern education is only concerned with the indoctrination of the mind. Neither the heart or the body is educated in a way which invites the soul to turn towards the light. Without being able to consciously sense, feel, and think the same thing, there is no understanding. Rather their opposition only produces the struggle for prestige as partial compensation. The educated person has begun sincere efforts to "know thyself." The indoctrinated person has been content to imagine oneself in the cause of self justification. The indoctrinated person is content to complain about Trump while the educated person has experienced the human condition as it exists within them and finds it beneficial to acquire "understanding."

We are not educated men. We have become imbalanced creatures enchanted with the shadows on the wall. Under these circumstances, the struggle for prestige must lead to the results described by Orwell and Huxley. Only educated people can offer an alternative but they are few and far between. So the decline of civilization seems inevitable.

This is a special case of Strawman fallacy, named "Moving the Goal Posts" fallacy in conjunction with the entrapment fallacy.

You use a word in an everyday, common sense, and then deny its meaning; when someone confronts you and says "but hey, that IS the meaning of this word" then you give a completely different definition for the word, which is not in common use, which is individualistic, and which is not even remotely accepted by the overwhelming majority of those who use that word.

You feel you won the argument because you disregard the rules of the language.

If you want to be educated, the first thing you must do is clearly identify words, and attach a meaning to them that others have. If you attach different meanings, the communication breaks down completely.

Case in point: I talk about education. You talk about something else and call it an education. A better way to do this would have been your NOT denying I have an education, but instead you ought to have pointed out what specific subject material I ought to have learned.

You failed at this. Your education is faulty, because your use of the English language shows you haven't learned your lesson well.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:51 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:48 am
So who knows, you may end up a brain surgeon, yet.

Who knows?

I have no idea what the morrow brings, but what ever it will bring it will be known now.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:19 pm -1-

This is a special case of Strawman fallacy, named "Moving the Goal Posts" fallacy in conjunction with the entrapment fallacy.

You use a word in an everyday, common sense, and then deny its meaning; when someone confronts you and says "but hey, that IS the meaning of this word" then you give a completely different definition for the word, which is not in common use, which is individualistic, and which is not even remotely accepted by the overwhelming majority of those who use that word.

You feel you won the argument because you disregard the rules of the language.

If you want to be educated, the first thing you must do is clearly identify words, and attach a meaning to them that others have. If you attach different meanings, the communication breaks down completely.

Case in point: I talk about education. You talk about something else and call it an education. A better way to do this would have been your NOT denying I have an education, but instead you ought to have pointed out what specific subject material I ought to have learned.

You failed at this. Your education is faulty, because your use of the English language shows you haven't learned your lesson well.

But that is the whole point. Education has become a word that cannot be distinguished from indoctrination. It has lost its meaning because it denies both what the human organism is and its conscious potential. An educated person it seems for you is a person thought so by leaders in society. An indoctrinated person is thought to be so by an opposing society. Plato was speaking about education as it relates objectively to human being.

Education if it is to have any meaning cannot be defined by convention. Yet we do so and presume it will defy rather than further the devolution of society described by Orwell and Huxley. The fact that it is done doesn't justify it. it only proves that we lack the necessary education to respect the value and purpose of educating the whole person.

-1- wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:46 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:19 pm -1-

This is a special case of Strawman fallacy, named "Moving the Goal Posts" fallacy in conjunction with the entrapment fallacy.

You use a word in an everyday, common sense, and then deny its meaning; when someone confronts you and says "but hey, that IS the meaning of this word" then you give a completely different definition for the word, which is not in common use, which is individualistic, and which is not even remotely accepted by the overwhelming majority of those who use that word.

You feel you won the argument because you disregard the rules of the language.

If you want to be educated, the first thing you must do is clearly identify words, and attach a meaning to them that others have. If you attach different meanings, the communication breaks down completely.

Case in point: I talk about education. You talk about something else and call it an education. A better way to do this would have been your NOT denying I have an education, but instead you ought to have pointed out what specific subject material I ought to have learned.

You failed at this. Your education is faulty, because your use of the English language shows you haven't learned your lesson well.

But that is the whole point. Education has become a word that cannot be distinguished from indoctrination. It has lost its meaning because it denies both what the human organism is and its conscious potential. An educated person it seems for you is a person thought so by leaders in society. An indoctrinated person is thought to be so by an opposing society. Plato was speaking about education as it relates objectively to human being.

Education if it is to have any meaning cannot be defined by convention. Yet we do so and presume it will defy rather than further the devolution of society described by Orwell and Huxley. The fact that it is done doesn't justify it. it only proves that we lack the necessary education to respect the value and purpose of educating the whole person.

I am sorry, Nick_A. Here you deny the validity of the entire English language. Nay, you deny the validity of the entire culture. That's why you say "Education if it is to have any meaning cannot be defined by convention." You need to understand how language works: it reflects reality, and if reality changes (as you claim) then the language gets nuanced. Language does not simply give up, declaring it can't help us.

And you are wrong in declaring "Education has become a word that cannot be distinguished from indoctrination." I showed you the distinguishing marks; your IGNORING those marks does not alter reality. Reality is set; you want to bend it, but you have to be much stronger than this to do that.

So since you can't bend reality, you choose to ignore it.

Now tell me, Nick_A, if a person encounters another person who ignores reality, who renders the power of language nil, who does not believe that language is an evolving, reflective thing of reality, yet you only have words to communicate with that person... how would you face that person, what would you say to him, to make him understand anything you say?

I mean, let's drop this education debate. I wish to open a new debate with you, in which you explain to us in clear, precise language, how to communicate with someone who denies any value in communication, yet does not shut up and does not go away.

This will be a more worthwhile endeavour. I may learn new things, and you will be able to have the floor in which you are the expert, namely, how to get ideas across to other people who can't see how language works and can't see how their claims have been circumdifferentiated. You may want to explain to us how to get through to you. Believe us,we tried, and miserably failed. But not one of us has had the wherewithal to ask YOU, how to do it.

So, here's your chance. You have the floor. Tell us, please, we beg you: What is it that another person can present to you that will convince you of anything not already self-indoctrinated in your precious, slurpid mind?

I am sorry, Nick_A. Here you deny the validity of the entire English language. Nay, you deny the validity of the entire culture. That's why you say "Education if it is to have any meaning cannot be defined by convention." You need to understand how language works: it reflects reality, and if reality changes (as you claim) then the language gets nuanced. Language does not simply give up, declaring it can't help us.

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:52 am Overpopulation is the key problem, as usual. When the "masses" are sufficiently numerous, they stop mattering to politicians, if they ever did (consider Stalin's comment about one death being a tragedy but a million a statistic).

So it's a matter of manipulation. This current situation - which most find problematic - perfectly suits those at the top. This is their faulty design. So, with the masses' education neglected, the many start to lose touch with society's bodies of knowledge after a couple of generations because poor and middle class parents will also lack the capacity to compensate for the rationalisation of their children's education.

Even the Romans knew that an undereducated populace was easier to control and manipulate than an educated one (saves on public education costs too). Now, with public education suitably rationalised into work preparation, moguls like Murdoch propagandise freely to undereducated pliable minds.

George Carlin saw it clearly enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98 - he was on fire

"They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin’ years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork.

And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.

And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ...The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. ...And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care.

That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain wilfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it."