vegetariantaxidermy wrote:ForCruxSake wrote:thedoc wrote:
No, a human baby needs a parent who cares, gender doesn't matter.
I think a human baby just needs someone who cares, and can care for it. Having grown into a young child, he/she may need more, for a developing identity, something or someone to identify with, but generally they just need care.
I have to agree with Hobbes': as many children have gone on to successful lives with minimal parental interaction (as with children growing up in boarding school) as children have been fucked up by bad parenting from their actual parents.
The Israeli kibbutz system never seemed to harm child development and the kids saw their parents for a limited time during the working day, the rest of the time spent in child dorms being looked after by adults other than their own parents.
I think as long as children are well cared for, it doesn't matter who does the caring.
It's so funny, you both like to think of yourselves as terribly enlightened 'feminists' but as is par for the course you are both full of disingenuous crap.
And this kind of crap adds to the argument how? Again, you undermine your own argument by having to shout people down and insult them. All it does is encourage others to speak to you likewise, without even bothering to take on your points because of they have to navigate the insults first... but I will try. Clearly, I'm a masochist who likes the odd opportunity to shit-talk back. (I always need to take a shower after, though.)
Back to 'the point' you made.... I'm not trying to be a feminist and have never claimed to be one. I can't speak for thedoc, but I don't think he's trying to be one either. It's you that insists on, not just labelling people, but making out they are labelling themselves. Why you do this is beyond me. It's irrational.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Name another mammal whose mother isn't needed.
Why? So that you shift ground from the point being made, a little further? A mother is needed to give birth, obviously. After that a child needs loving care, whoever can give it. All mammals risk being abandoned, it's care they need to survive WHOEVER GIVES IT.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I'm not saying human mothers are the best mothers in the animal kingdom--because they aren't by a long shot. And yes, I will state the obvious. A child that is being beaten the shit out of by a screaming alcoholic mother is probably better off with a loving, nurturing father, grandmother, grandfather...
... Or by extension, you are saying, ANY OTHER PERSON CAPABLE OF REALLY CARING FOR THEM!
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...whatever, if there happens to be one handy. Even then, children tend to yearn for their mother.
No, they don't. They yearn for care and love. The habit that is called 'mother', who may be abusive, may be all that they have known. It's hard to shake off habits, even ones that are bad for you, or ultimately make you feel shit, even after a very brief high. If poor parenting is all they have ever known, then it may all they can hope for rather than being totally alone. All it takes is a new experience of healthy care to shift that, assuming they have not been irrevocably damaged by poor parenting. Better they receive care from ANYONE WHO CAN CARE FOR THEM IN A HEALTHY, LOVING MANNER.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:What happens, more often than not, is the child is fostered out and never really loved by anyone, growing up emotionally retarded and dysfunctional.
"More often than not" suggests you know very little about this, otherwise cite a fact.
Here's a fact of experience: I know a very successful foster mum whose children would cry for her for weeks after being placed with a permanent parent, returned to their own parents or returning to general care. She has been fostering for 25 years and many of her foster children have stayed in touch with into adulthood. One actually calls her mum. I'm not saying every foster experience is like this, but it's stated to put your unsupported "more often than not" bullshit back in it's place.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Kibbutzes have long since abandoned the rigid child-separation policy.
Proof being?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Any half-wit could see that children would be unhappy in that system.
Any half-wit can see that your statement is conjecture and half-witted in itself.
Many children are unhappy at home, but where's your proof that the kibbutz child care care system was dismantled because it was abusive or lacking in care, rather than part of a kibbutz restructure that was economic, or unworkable due to mechanics?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Kibbut's didn't restructure their care of children. Economics shifted the organisation of kibbutzes.
Exactly. So if it had bugger all to do with the childcare, and was about the economic efficacy of kibbutzes, why blow smoke out of your arse about it?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:It was about economics and an idealist socialist dream of complete equality, 'emancipation' of women from the 'burden' of child rearing-- leaving her 'free' to work for the good of the collective blah blah blah....
If only we could get more than 'blah blah blah' from you in general. It's really not as good as sound, supported reasoning. From you, even unadulterated common sense will do.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You can't suppress human nature, and you can't stop babies and mothers from wanting to be together, or children from wanting to be with their families.
Let's call them 'caregivers' and assume that they're not all related to mothers, or being mothers, shall we?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I remember as a young child being taught at school about the Kibbutz system of child-rearing and being horrified at the thought of it (imperfect as my own family was). It just sounded wrong to me. And that's the gut feeling of a child, not some twit with an agenda.
No, that's the way someone brought up in an alternative culture thinks, whose parents, or culture, might have been bone headed enough to instil into her, that their way is the ONLY way that is right. I was taught about kibbutzes, too. I was also pro-Arab, not least because of the way they taught Arab-Israeli history at my CofE school, and was prone to argue against all that was Jewish, or Israeli, in my youth. Even I was fascinated by how kibbutzes worked and wanted to go see for them for myself. That's called 'open-minded curiosity'. It seems you never had that even when you were young. You were just as judgemental then by the sound of it.
After all the 'blah blah blah' from you, one obvious question needs to be asked: Are you even a mother, yourself? I'm wondering if all this posturing comes from the fact you are, but don't wish to cite your own experience, to lend support to what you say? If not, it sounds rather like your 'blah blah blah' may well be emanating from your nether region.
Off to take that shower now.
