Professional tyranny

[vegetariantaxidermy]

militant belligerent atheists who take great pleasure in bashing anyone....

And of course, kkkristians are NEVER belligerant or militant.

[sthitapragya]

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

Even after the mind, it is doubtful if intrinsic value exists. All assigned value is subjective. Most of us subjectively assign value to human life. To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all. Even for a person, the assigned value can change with time. A guy buys a large TV and is proud of it today, shows it off to all his friends. A few months down the line, in a fit of anger he breaks the TV deliberately. The value changed to nothing at that moment. Ten minutes later he will regret his decision. The value changed yet again.

So I agree with DP. There is no intrinsic value to anything.

[Dalek Prime]

D P, this person insisting on intrinsic value was probably referring to the Great Chain of Being which is a structure built upon categories of objective intrinsic value. It is the same idea as Plato's relationship between knowledge (wholeness" and opinions (parts-partial truths.) The Great Chain of Being is just more specific. It refers to an objective hierarchical order which makes it politically incorrect but the idea is essential for anyone truing to appreciate the complimentary flows of involution (into creation) and evolution (back to the source) that sustain universal structure.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Chain-of-Being

Appreciate your input Nick. I'll look further. In all fairness, he could have said that, if that is indeed what he meant. Be that as it may, anyone who knows me on this forum should know I also reject anything said to be objective, only accepting that everything is subjective.

Nonetheless, I'll look.

[Dalek Prime]

Well, you've always been kind to me from the get-go, doc, and youre always welcome here. And I know I get worked up and abusive and such, but I will put effort into not being such in future. At least I will try.

Actually it's OK, just be yourself, I know who you are, and if your were to change I might not recognize you.

"Who are you, and what have you done with DP?"

PS. I like you the way you are, especially when you get all hot and bothered about something. "Exterminate!"

FYI, I know you don't agree with him all the time, but Henry Quirk is my friend, because I know him and trust him, and have for a long time.

Thanks doc. I like Henry too. But I know I can be abusive to people I genuinely appreciate here, and would like to be just a bit more respectful in the way I speak to you and Henry. I mean, if I respect you, I can at least try to demonstrate that with a bit less crassness on my part.

Having said that, yeah, I do get all exterminatey now and then ....

PS. I'm just getting over a bout of food poisoning and trying to eat something. Perhaps it's weakened my Dalek sensibilities for universal destruction. We can't have this persist.

[Dalek Prime]

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

Even after the mind, it is doubtful if intrinsic value exists. All assigned value is subjective. Most of us subjectively assign value to human life. To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all. Even for a person, the assigned value can change with time. A guy buys a large TV and is proud of it today, shows it off to all his friends. A few months down the line, in a fit of anger he breaks the TV deliberately. The value changed to nothing at that moment. Ten minutes later he will regret his decision. The value changed yet again.

So I agree with DP. There is no intrinsic value to anything.

That's the thing too. He made me feel as though I was being intellectually dishonest, when all I wanted was for him to show me what I was not seeing. It's not that I'm so closed off that I can't accept new ideas, but those ideas better make at least as much sense to me, as those being supplanted, or they will be rejected. I think that goes without saying for anyone here.

Anyways, thanks to all for the feedback. You folks do keep me centered, or at least as centered as I can hope to be lol! Who says this forum and the people in it aren't helpful? You all have value to me. Perhaps not intrinsically, but value nonetheless. It's appreciated, sincerely.

[sthitapragya]

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

Even after the mind, it is doubtful if intrinsic value exists. All assigned value is subjective. Most of us subjectively assign value to human life. To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all. Even for a person, the assigned value can change with time. A guy buys a large TV and is proud of it today, shows it off to all his friends. A few months down the line, in a fit of anger he breaks the TV deliberately. The value changed to nothing at that moment. Ten minutes later he will regret his decision. The value changed yet again.

So I agree with DP. There is no intrinsic value to anything.

That's the thing too. He made me feel as though I was being intellectually dishonest, when all I wanted was for him to show me what I was not seeing. It's not that I'm so closed off that I can't accept new ideas, but those ideas better make at least as much sense to me, as those being supplanted, or they will be rejected. I think that goes without saying for anyone here.

That is usually the belief of everyone who is too convinced about something. They will always think, "If I can see this, and you being an intelligent man cannot, it must mean you are being dishonest to yourself". It's usually the other way round.

[Dalek Prime]

Do you think, as a teacher, he may be too accepting of different viewpoints, never settling on one himself? I'm not saying that being open to new ideas is a bad thing. Clearly it's not. But when you can't form some conclusions from what you know, because everything is 'possible', where does that leave you, besides endless possibilities and zero answers? Does a teacher need to be this open to ideas to teach, that he no longer holds any himself, and rejects any conclusions as closed-minded? (Aka, my rejection of intrinsic value?)

[Greta]

... would not respond to my asking what gives a rock value.

I'll have a go at this if you don't mind a small veer off topic.

Each rock is part of larger processes, and each process is moving towards one end - equilibrium. The rock has intrinsic value in playing its small part in the continuing rebuilding and development of post-BB reality. Like the rock, we also seek equilibrium, just that the rock is more subject to chaos than us animals.

Now please note, I don't dismiss intrinsic value based on my antinatalism, but on my honest belief that value is given by mind. And this fellow, telling me to accept intrinsic value, is no different from a theist asking an atheist to accept God. (He's a Sufi, btw, and already accepts things I cannot possibly imagine accepting.) He's too open minded, almost, to make up his own mind.

Yes, philosopher or not, if he doesn't explain himself then it's hard to see how he differs from any other theist who expects others to believe as uncritically as they do.

[sthitapragya]

Do you think, as a teacher, he may be too accepting of different viewpoints, never settling on one himself? I'm not saying that being open to new ideas is a bad thing. Clearly it's not. But when you can't form some conclusions from what you know, because everything is 'possible', where does that leave you, besides endless possibilities and zero answers? Does a teacher need to be this open to ideas to teach, that he no longer holds any himself, and rejects any conclusions as closed-minded? (Aka, my rejection of intrinsic value?)

In fact, I would say the opposite that there are certain things to which he might have closed his mind. He is closed minded to any argument against intrinsic value, isn't he? I agree with you that there is no intrinsic value to anything, but if he disagrees, he should sit you down and explain exactly why you are wrong. You might come away convinced that he is right and learn a new perspective. You could have told me about it and I too would have come away with a different perspective. He did not choose to do that.

[Dalek Prime]

... would not respond to my asking what gives a rock value.

I'll have a go at this if you don't mind a small veer off topic.

Each rock is part of larger processes, and each process is moving towards one end - equilibrium. The rock has intrinsic value in playing its small part in the continuing rebuilding and development of post-BB reality. Like the rock, we also seek equilibrium, just that the rock is more subject to chaos than us animals. It's actually not a bad go, Greta. Let me see if I can incorporate it. I don't usually care if it's not observed, but let me think on it.

Now please note, I don't dismiss intrinsic value based on my antinatalism, but on my honest belief that value is given by mind. And this fellow, telling me to accept intrinsic value, is no different from a theist asking an atheist to accept God. (He's a Sufi, btw, and already accepts things I cannot possibly imagine accepting.) He's too open minded, almost, to make up his own mind.

Yes, philosopher or not, if he doesn't explain himself then it's hard to see how he differs from any other theist who expects others to believe as uncritically as they do.

[thedoc]

militant belligerent atheists who take great pleasure in bashing anyone....

And of course, kkkristians are NEVER belligerant or militant.

Of course there is a minority of people who call themselves Christian and act like that, but in my estimation they don't act like Christians and therefore don't really qualify.

[Hobbes' Choice]

militant belligerent atheists who take great pleasure in bashing anyone....

And of course, kkkristians are NEVER belligerant or militant.

Of course there is a minority of people who call themselves Christian and act like that, but in my estimation they don't act like Christians and therefore don't really qualify.

As there is no core coherent message in the "words of God", then Christians can be pretty much what they want to be.

[Greta]

... would not respond to my asking what gives a rock value.

I'll have a go at this if you don't mind a small veer off topic.

Each rock is part of larger processes, and each process is moving towards one end - equilibrium. The rock has intrinsic value in playing its small part in the continuing rebuilding and development of post-BB reality. Like the rock, we also seek equilibrium, just that the rock is more subject to chaos than us animals. It's actually not a bad go, Greta. Let me see if I can incorporate it. I don't usually care if it's not observed, but let me think on it.

You sound surprised :)

By all means mull it over until you're satisfied.

[Walker]

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

Even after the mind, it is doubtful if intrinsic value exists. All assigned value is subjective. Most of us subjectively assign value to human life. To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all. Even for a person, the assigned value can change with time. A guy buys a large TV and is proud of it today, shows it off to all his friends. A few months down the line, in a fit of anger he breaks the TV deliberately. The value changed to nothing at that moment. Ten minutes later he will regret his decision. The value changed yet again.

So I agree with DP. There is no intrinsic value to anything.

That's the thing too. He made me feel as though I was being intellectually dishonest, when all I wanted was for him to show me what I was not seeing. It's not that I'm so closed off that I can't accept new ideas, but those ideas better make at least as much sense to me, as those being supplanted, or they will be rejected. I think that goes without saying for anyone here.

Anyways, thanks to all for the feedback. You folks do keep me centered, or at least as centered as I can hope to be lol! Who says this forum and the people in it aren't helpful? You all have value to me. Perhaps not intrinsically, but value nonetheless. It's appreciated, sincerely.

To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all.

Wrong.

A terrorist knows the value of human life. That's why high kill numbers is the objective for a terrorist. More lives destroyed, more terror inflicted upon humanity. Terrorist objective achieved.

[Dalek Prime]

I'll have a go at this if you don't mind a small veer off topic.

Each rock is part of larger processes, and each process is moving towards one end - equilibrium. The rock has intrinsic value in playing its small part in the continuing rebuilding and development of post-BB reality. Like the rock, we also seek equilibrium, just that the rock is more subject to chaos than us animals. It's actually not a bad go, Greta. Let me see if I can incorporate it. I don't usually care if it's not observed, but let me think on it.

You sound surprised

By all means mull it over until you're satisfied.

Already have. A rock has value to universal equilibrium, but none to itself. And neither know of this, or care a whit. If the rock wasn't there, the universe would just have to behave differently. Neither a loss or a gain.