Philosophy Now Forum

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Gary Childress wrote: Had there been no draft I wonder how many of us would now be members of the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity sphere". If you think American Power is bad ask the people of Nanking in 1937 what it was like to be under Imperial Japanese rule. Or had the Soviets not conscripted their people would anything have stopped Nazi Germany from ruling the world? My understanding is that fascism was pretty horrible to live under. Ask the people of France what their rations were like under German occupation.

NO ONE has the right to order ANYONE to kill people.

I agree.

bobevenson wrote:Please, black slaves were treated with dignity not afforded to soldiers. ...

Yussa Massa yous sho nuff de rightest.

Oh, I forgot, even though you disdain the USA, and don't even pay any attention to it, you know more about this country than any American!

Got it from your WWII veterans site you idiot. And whilst I have little interest in your Disney History boob I know soldiers and have read, unlike you, some military history which included something you, as the child of immigrants, obviously haven't heard of, the GI Bill.

A potentially valid point has been largely obscured by Bob's peccadilloes. When you think about it, slavery has been in the process of being reintroduced to the US for some time. Consider the difference:

- earning $2 p.h. performing menial chores in a job that a person must keep to eat, relying on charities and shelters because rent is unaffordable

- earning $0 p.h. performing menial chores as a slave, and provided with basic food and accommodation.

The differences largely depend on the slave "owners" - whether they are relatively cruel or benign. It would seem that slaves working for a relatively decent family would have been far better off than many "wage slaves" earning tiny wages for harsh bosses governed by weak or ineffectual regulations.

Modern society's main advance is eliminating the most egregious abuses by "slave masters", eg. murder, torture, rape, control of children. A positive humanist step, but the slave/master dynamic appears to fast returning to the US, encouraged by similar dynamics in Asian dictatorships and developing countries. An established modest minimum wage, subsidised in part by more honest accounting of multinationals' and billionaires' taxes, could help heal some of the divisions of US society.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You lost that, just like you lose every war. ...

You do a massive disservice to their war dead. You are also wrong.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Gary Childress wrote: Had there been no draft I wonder how many of us would now be members of the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity sphere". If you think American Power is bad ask the people of Nanking in 1937 what it was like to be under Imperial Japanese rule. Or had the Soviets not conscripted their people would anything have stopped Nazi Germany from ruling the world? My understanding is that fascism was pretty horrible to live under. Ask the people of France what their rations were like under German occupation.

You just don't get it. NO ONE has the right to order ANYONE to kill people. Conscientious objectors have been persecuted and tortured. They are the only heroes

of war as far as I'm concerned. Hmm, you had the draft for the Vietnam war. You lost that, just like you lose every war. I see you have been taken over by Asian 'commies' as a result. Actually, China pretty much owns the world now anyway. Paranoid yanks.

Wrong here VT. It's part of the law, British, American, etc. under strict regulation. BTW England started WWII when Neville Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia and declared war on Germany for invading Poland.

PhilX

Philosophy Explorer wrote:BTW England started WWII when Neville Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia and declared war on Germany for invading Poland.

PhilX

EDIT: Sorry, misinterpretation on my part. Still that is a very difficult statement to "pin down". There were many events that "led" to WW2 and it's difficult I think to pick out the most pertinent. In some cases it may be valid to say WW2 effectively started in Asia with the second Sino Japanese war.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You lost that, just like you lose every war. ...

You do a massive disservice to their war dead. You are also wrong.

Oh diddums. Heaven forbid if I sould ever do a 'disservice' to dead soldiers.

Gary Childress wrote:

Philosophy Explorer wrote:BTW England started WWII when Neville Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia and declared war on Germany for invading Poland.

PhilX

EDIT: Sorry, misinterpretation on my part. Still that is a very difficult statement to "pin down". There were many events that "led" to WW2 and it's difficult I think to pick out the most pertinent. In some cases it may be valid to say WW2 effectively started in Asia with the second Sino Japanese war.

Still Gary, it's part of history and I'm using the same arguments that have been used against the US. Those events I've listed are among the most pertinent given by historians and they're not hard to pick out at all. Do you need more examples?

PhilX

Philosophy Explorer wrote:

Gary Childress wrote:

Philosophy Explorer wrote:BTW England started WWII when Neville Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia and declared war on Germany for invading Poland.

PhilX

EDIT: Sorry, misinterpretation on my part. Still that is a very difficult statement to "pin down". There were many events that "led" to WW2 and it's difficult I think to pick out the most pertinent. In some cases it may be valid to say WW2 effectively started in Asia with the second Sino Japanese war.

Still Gary, it's part of history and I'm using the same arguments that have been used against the US. Those events I've listed are among the most pertinent given by historians and they're not hard to pick out at all. Do you need more examples?

PhilX

If it's a simple matter of when WW2 started then it can just as easily be argued that WW2 (in Europe) started on September 1st 1939 when the first German forces crossed into Poland. Some say war starts when the shooting starts. In fact, you have two separate dates in your argument. England Declared war on Germany after Poland was invaded in September 1939. Czechoslovakia was fully absorbed by Germany in March 1939. So which date do you want to pick as the "start" of WW2 in Europe?

Gary Childress wrote:If it's a simple matter of when WW2 started then it can just as easily be argued that WW2 (in Europe) started on September 1st 1939 when the first German forces crossed into Poland. Some say war starts when the shooting starts. In fact, you have two separate dates in your argument. England Declared war on Germany after Poland was invaded in September 1939. Czechoslovakia was fully absorbed by Germany in March 1939. So which date do you want to pick as the "start" of WW2 in Europe?

What I'm saying Gary is if certain events didn't occur, then others wouldn't have happened either. It's as simple as that.

PhilX

Gary Childress wrote:
If it's a simple matter of when WW2 started then it can just as easily be argued that WW2 (in Europe) started on September 1st 1939 when the first German forces crossed into Poland. Some say war starts when the shooting starts. In fact, you have two separate dates in your argument. England Declared war on Germany after Poland was invaded in September 1939. Czechoslovakia was fully absorbed by Germany in March 1939. So which date do you want to pick as the "start" of WW2 in Europe?

So that was a 'good' reason. I wonder why no one declared war on the US when it Invaded Iraq? I don't think anyone knows what the fuck WW1 was all about, least of all the pawns fighting it. I know it made arms manufacturers really happy, as does any war.

Philosophy Explorer wrote:

Gary Childress wrote:If it's a simple matter of when WW2 started then it can just as easily be argued that WW2 (in Europe) started on September 1st 1939 when the first German forces crossed into Poland. Some say war starts when the shooting starts. In fact, you have two separate dates in your argument. England Declared war on Germany after Poland was invaded in September 1939. Czechoslovakia was fully absorbed by Germany in March 1939. So which date do you want to pick as the "start" of WW2 in Europe?

What I'm saying Gary is if certain events didn't occur, then others wouldn't have happened either. It's as simple as that.

PhilX

Perhaps true. Had Germany not been humiliated at Versailles after WW1 probably WW2 wouldn't have happened either. One could almost go back in an infinite regression as far as different national entities blaming each other for various wars. And at any point decisions could have been made differently by someone, including the "bad guys", such that the War could have been averted.

Obviously after two disastrous world wars, it is hoped that we've all learned something, how to control our own behavior and not be so worried about pointing fingers at others. I do think Bob may have a valid point in so far as if we all operated on the principle of allowing soldiers the option to refuse orders they dislike then most armies would fall into disarray and the ability for any nation to conduct an unjust war would probably evaporate. But it would need to be enforced upon all nations as a universal declaration of some kind like the UDHR (except ratified by all). Perhaps a new human rights declaration is in order; as VT put it, that "no one has the right to order anyone else to kill another person under any circumstance."

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Oh diddums. Heaven forbid if I sould ever do a 'disservice' to dead soldiers.

I can well understand how you'd like living under a fascist state.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Oh diddums. Heaven forbid if I sould ever do a 'disservice' to dead soldiers.

I can well understand how you'd like living under a fascist state.

Fascism is forcing people to go to war. We are losing our freedom bit by bit anyway, and most people don't seem to give a damn. Look at how much freedom we've all lost since 11/9, and all for some bullshit excuse that it's for our 'protection'.

Come live in the UK bob.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -Iraq.html