Philosophy Now Forum

ReliStuPhD wrote: Ha! I've got no cherries to pick, as I find Aquinas to make a coherent case,

Rel, I am curious: have you ever tried to do something useful with your brain?

Maybe teach mathematics, or critical thinking, in some school badly in need of teachers?

Or, if you have no patience for real subjects, how about pushing a wheelbarrow or filling a pothole?

Those would have been very useful occupations.

Much more benign than trying to warp people's minds?

"You're gonna hate Fridays."

HA!

The question at hand is...


IFChristians are right, and their God does exist, do atheists choose Hell by disbelieving?


I say: yep.

Would nice if every one could stop with the dick wavin' and focus.

henry quirk wrote:The question at hand is...


IFChristians are right, and their God does exist, do atheists choose Hell by disbelieving?


I say: yep.

Would nice if every one could stop with the dick wavin' and focus.

I agree.

If atheists are choosing hell, and choice is usually between options, what other options are being refused?

As far as I know there is only heaven and hell as options, and for a God to only provide hell would go against scriptures, as scriptures say that we, and thus God, should answer the evil of rejection with good. Hell is not known for being good.

http://biblehub.com/romans/12-21.htm

Regards
DL

Obvious Leo wrote:Actually I find parts of Augustine far more philosophically engaging than Aquinas,

Okay, but the hypocrisy has to turn your stomach a bit, no?

Who needs such stricken philosophies in a world which can bring forth Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Adams and The Life of Brian in the space of a single century?

And my hero, Terry! In Small Gods, he bloody nailed it. Good Omens wasn't too shabby, either. On monasticism, my favourite source *blush* Ellis Peters. I stopped reading philosophy so long ago that my ignorance has almost completely grown back, and I really shouldn't be flaunting it in front of true scholars. (He irks me, Leo - I can't help myself!)

As for the not giving a flying fig about first causes, gaps and big rocks - yea. For me, atheism just means I'm not buying this life insurance, so quit knocking on my door early Saturday mornings.

Greatest I am wrote:

henry quirk wrote:The question at hand is...
IFChristians are right, and their God does exist, do atheists choose Hell by disbelieving?

I say: yep.

I agree.

If atheists are choosing hell, and choice is usually between options, what other options are being refused?

As far as I know there is only heaven and hell as options, and for a God to only provide hell would go against scriptures, as scriptures say that we, and thus God, should answer the evil of rejection with good. Hell is not known for being good.

http://biblehub.com/romans/12-21.htm

Regards
DL

I believe this verse would leave a lot of room for interpretation, assuming you accept the Bible as valid.

John 14:2 King James Version (KJV)
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Could we assume that there are different levels in Heaven? 1st class, 2nd class, steerage? Perhaps that is why they sing "In Heaven there is no Beer", but only in the lower classes. Good beer or fine wine in the upper classes. Would "no beer" be hell for some people?

Heaven is a tyranny. Not a democracy.

In a tyranny there is only two levels. God on top and everyone else below.

My answer dealt with choices other than heaven.

Regards
DL

Obvious Leo wrote:Actually I find parts of Augustine far more philosophically engaging than Aquinas,

St. Augustine (354 - 430) for example, wrote in City of God, published in 413, that humanity is a heap of depravity, in a state of original sin, and salvation could be found only in contempt for all science and curiosity, as well as contempt for all forms of pleasure (food, music, beauty, etc…). Historians’ descriptions of the symptoms of decline in the Middle Ages sound frighteningly familiar today:

• gradual disappearance of curiosity
• disuse of basic rules of logic
• uncritical acceptance of unsupported claims by Authority
• appeal to emotions: fear, greed, envy, hate, intolerance
• mental laziness and suspension of intellectual effort
• jeering, and worse, aimed at dissenters
• crusades and wars against heresy
• spying and persecution, torture and execution, by rulers of their own citizens

There's a reason it's referred to as the "Dark Ages", Ned.

Greatest I am wrote:If atheists are choosing hell, and choice is usually between options, what other options are being refused?

Heaven, as you mentioned, though your rebuttal (?) to Hell didn't follow.

But yes, the choice would be between Heaven and Hell.

ReliStuPhD wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:If atheists are choosing hell, and choice is usually between options, what other options are being refused?

Heaven, as you mentioned, though your rebuttal (?) to Hell didn't follow.

But yes, the choice would be between Heaven and Hell.

Then that would show a vengeful God who lashes out without a just cause and shows that he has no moral sense.

To one who seeks a good God, as we all should, that would disqualify him as a good God and thus he cannot exist.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Then that would show a vengeful God who lashes out without a just cause and shows that he has no moral sense.

Well, that's sort of the question, though, isn't it? If, as the Christian holds, the atheist has received a clear indication but has actively dismissed it, is that a God with no moral sense. It's sort of like someone who moves to Oklahoma and, in building their house opts not to build a tornado shelter. Their neighbors warn them that it's important, but they look at the historical records and find that a tornado hasn't been through that area in over 300 years. What then happens when the tornado does come through and they don't have a shelter? That's not a perfect analogy by any means, but I think it helps capture the "I've deliberately chosen not to do X because I just think it's likely that Y will ever be an issue."

So anyway, that's how it goes. As I've said, I'm not personally convinced, but I figured it was worth a go anyway.

Greatest I am wrote:To one who seeks a good God, as we all should, that would disqualify him as a good God and thus he cannot exist.

This doesn't hold, but I can certainly understand your position. So while it's one I somewhat share, I know it's not inherently true.

Skip wrote: And my hero, Terry!

Quite so, Skip. Yet another truth-teller claimed by the grim reaper. R.I.P. my friend.

Skip wrote:As for the not giving a flying fig about first causes, gaps and big rocks

Have mercy on your brother Leo for he repents of all his sins. Please tell me we're not doing the bloody rocks again.

I never, ever do the big rocks! Or the cat in the box or the thumbnail of a giant.

Skip wrote:I never, ever do the big rocks! Or the cat in the box or the thumbnail of a giant.

I'm pleased to hear it, Skip. As I see it this leaves only the minor matter of the angels on the head of a pin as a question yet to be resolved. At this stage I am yet to commit to a firm position on this matter but you may rest assured that I am giving it my deepest consideration. I'll keep you posted on developments.