~ The Truth is a Hard Pill to Swallow ~

[Wyman]

Did you know that certain congressional oversight committees knew of the program while it was going on and approved it?

But you didn't know, did you, and don't say you did!

Yes, I did! Do you want me to dig up an old newspaper article, Bob?

[bobevenson]

Did you know that certain congressional oversight committees knew of the program while it was going on and approved it?

But you didn't know, did you, and don't say you did!

Yes, I did! Do you want me to dig up an old newspaper article, Bob?

Yeah, I'd like to see all the horrid details that could have saved Congress the time and expense of their investigation. That must be one hell of a newspaper. Did it receive a Pulitzer Prize?

[Wyman]

"The continuing education of bobevenson"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

Now, I'll admit, they may not have known about shoving food up their butts - but does it really matter?

[bobevenson]

"The continuing education of bobevenson" The day you educate me about anything is the day I'll put a gun to my head, pal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html That's strictly about waterboarding, which I said earlier is a Sunday School picnic compared to other CIA atrocities.

[Wyman]

"The continuing education of bobevenson" The day you educate me about anything is the day I'll put a gun to my head, pal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html That's strictly about waterboarding, which I said earlier is a Sunday School picnic compared to other CIA atrocities.

What's your point Bob? That if we're not very surprised that sleep deprivation, being dragged around blindfolded and threatened went on in addition to waterboarding, we're idiots? How do you know these things are worse than waterboarding? I'd think drowning would be worse, actually. Isn't your anger misplaced - rather than get mad at people because they're not surprised, get mad at your government. Write a nasty letter or hold up a cardboard picket sign in front of the White House.

[bobevenson]

What's your point Bob? That if we're not very surprised that sleep deprivation, being dragged around blindfolded and threatened went on in addition to waterboarding, we're idiots? How do you know these things are worse than waterboarding?

For somebody who claims to keep up with the news, you sure haven't heard much about the Congressional CIA investigative report. Sleep deprivation, being dragged around blindfolded? Where the hell do you get your news, the Disney Channel? I guess they must have left out the most serious atrocities so as not to upset you.

[Wyman]

What atrocities are you referring to?

[Bill Wiltrack]

.



Phoenix Program



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses of "Operation Phoenix", see Operation Phoenix (disambiguation).


The Phoenix Program (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Phụng Hoàng, a word related to fenghuang, the Chinese phoenix) was a program designed, coordinated, and executed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), United States special operations forces, special forces operatives from the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV), and the Republic of Vietnam's (South Vietnam) security apparatus during the Vietnam War.

The Program was designed to identify and "neutralize" (via infiltration, capture, terrorism, torture, and assassination) the infrastructure of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF or Viet Cong). The CIA described it as "a set of programs that sought to attack and destroy the political infrastructure of the Viet Cong". The major two components of the program were Provincial Reconnaissance Units (PRUs) and regional interrogation centers. PRUs would kill or capture suspected NLF members, as well as civilians who were thought to have information on NLF activities. Many of these people were then taken to interrogation centers where many were tortured in an attempt to gain intelligence on VC activities in the area. The information extracted at the centers was then given to military commanders, who would use it to task the PRU with further capture and assassination missions.

The program was in operation between 1965 and 1972, and similar efforts existed both before and after that period. By 1972, Phoenix operatives had "neutralized" 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom between 26,000 and 41,000 were killed.





.

[bobevenson]

What atrocities are you referring to?

This is just a sample news report, but I'm sure you can come up with others that are even more nauseating:

As expected, the report reveals in chilling detail the brutality of some of the CIA's techniques.

Specific examples of brutality by CIA interrogators cited in the report include the November 2002 death from hypothermia of a detainee who had been held partially nude and chained to a concrete floor at a secret CIA prison.

Some were deprived of sleep for up to 180 hours, at times with their hands shackled above their heads, and subjected to "rectal feeding" or "rectal hydration" without any documented medical need.

The report describes one secret CIA prison, whose location is not identified, as a "dungeon" where detainees were kept in total darkness, constantly shackled in isolated cells, bombarded with loud noise or music, and given only a bucket in which to relieve themselves.

The report documents details how the interrogation of the captive Abu Zubaydah appears to have traumatised two civilian CIA contractors charged with training CIA operatives in the techniques. In the report the contractors are referred to by the pseudonyms Grayson Swigert and Hammond Dunbar (The New York Times has named these men as psychologists James E. Mitchell and Bruce Jessen).

According to the report Abu Zubaydah, who had already agreed to co-operation, was subjected to enhanced interrogation nearly 24 hours a day for 19 days after being held in complete isolation for 47 days.

During his interrogation a collar made from a towel was used to slam his head into walls, he was kept in stress positions and or in a coffin-shaped box and waterboarded regularly as medical staff stood by to keep him alive. Waterboarding involves pouring water over a cloth covering a restrained victim's face, causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning.

A medical officer wrote to superiors in an email entitled "And so it begins": "The sessions accelerated rapidly progressing quickly to the waterboard after large box, walling, and small box periods. [Abu Zubaydah] seems very resistant to the waterboard. Longest time with the cloth over his face so far has been 17 seconds. This is sure to increase shortly. NO useful information so far ... He did vomit a couple of times during the waterboard with some beans and rice. It's been 10 hours since he ate so this is surprising and disturbing. We plan to only feed Ensure [a nutritional supplement] for a while now. I'm head[ing] back for another waterboard session."

The report found documents recording how some CIA operatives present responded to the interrogation, noting that it was "visually and psychologically very uncomfortable".

A day later a note was made saying: "Today's first session had a profound effect on all staff members present ... it seems the collective opinion that we should not go much further ... everyone seems strong for now but if the group has to continue ... we cannot guarantee how much longer," and later that day, "Several on the team profoundly affected ... some to the point of tears and choking up."

The report found that plans were in place to cremate and dispose of him if he died in interrogation.

In a statement the CIA acknowledged "shortcomings" in the detention and interrogation program and that "the agency made mistakes".

But the statement said its own review found the program "did produce intelligence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and save lives".

US President Barack Obama, who banned "enhanced interrogation" on his election, said in a statement the methods "were not only inconsistent with our values as nation, they did not serve our broader counterterrorism efforts or our national security interests".

"Moreover, these techniques did significant damage to America's standing in the world and made it harder to pursue our interests with allies and partners."

The only leading Republican to support the release of the report was Senator John McCain, who was tortured during the Vietnam War.

"Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies," he said. "Our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights which are protected by international conventions, [which] the United States not only joined but for the most part, authored.

"I dispute wholeheartedly it was right for [CIA officers] to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interest of justice, nor our security, nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend," he said.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Which is worse, I wonder...

Being water boarded (or humiliated in other ways) as a medical team stands by to revive you should you actually do more than sputter and panic...

...or...

...having your head cut off with a knife or sword?

In the first case: you may suffer but you'll live to (potentially) terrorize another day.

In the second: you're friggin' dead.


The fundamental question: did the use of torture yield information that furthered American interests (saved lives)?

Some folks say 'no'.

Some folks say 'yes.

Me, not being privy to a whole whack of classified information, can't say either way.

And neither can any of you.

'nuff said.

Some US military men actually died in SERE school, on the water board, which is why it was outlawed. No they did not have a medical team at the ready at the US Naval school, now ran by the Airforce, now being tame by comparison, so why do you believe they have one for their prisoners?

In SERE school they used an infinite water hose, not a finite gallon jug.

[SpheresOfBalance]

"it's inefficient"

No doubt.

Again: it may not work at all (I suspect it does).
Not necessarily, as some will tell you anything to get it to stop, "Yes I flew to the moon with my arms, and took a bite of the cheese, just stop torturing me." And that's one of the problems.

But: you make you due with what you have in the circumstances you're in.

[henry quirk]

"some will tell you anything to get it to stop"

Sure.

Thing is: I torture Joe, he tells me anything to get me to stop, I move on the information he offered, I discover his information is for crap, I go back and torture him some more.

Really: is it in Joe's long-term interest to lie? He may think so as I'm zapping his nutsack, but I'm gonna be way harder on him if He misleads me.

There is no fairness in torture: pony up what I want and I may leave you be; convince me you truly know nuthin' and I may leave you be; lie to me and sure as hell I reattach the electric leads to your nutsack.

The progression for some folks here seems to be: 'never torture, but if you do, be fair about it'...a horseshit construct if there ever was one.

[henry quirk]

"why do you believe they have one (medical team) for their prisoners?"

Oh, I don't know for a fact (don't really care either), but that's what was reported.

Entirely possible there was no medical team on standby...*shrug*

[Bill Wiltrack]

.




Torture is inhumane.


Nothing good comes of it.



I'm thankful I still have a modicum of empathy left in me.



In saying that I realize individuals such as you must exist.


Your fate.




.

[SpheresOfBalance]

"some will tell you anything to get it to stop"

Sure.

Thing is: I torture Joe, he tells me anything to get me to stop, I move on the information he offered, I discover his information is for crap, I go back and torture him some more.

Really: is it in Joe's long-term interest to lie? He may think so as I'm zapping his nutsack, but I'm gonna be way harder on him if He misleads me.

There is no fairness in torture: pony up what I want and I may leave you be; convince me you truly know nuthin'
Since you think yourself the expert in these matters, how exactly does one accomplish that?


and I may leave you be; lie to me and sure as hell I reattach the electric leads to your nutsack.

The progression for some folks here seems to be: 'never torture, but if you do, be fair about it'...a horseshit construct if there ever was one.

I personally, due to emotional content, (surely not intellectual, as intellectually I know that no one is really to blame, 100%, in and of themselves), would torture someone if, and only if, there was no doubt, whatsoever, that they killed one of my family members, someone I loved, not because of my loss, but rather that loss that the one I loved understood, in their final moments, knowing completely of the ways in which they were innocent, and as such, could imagine how they felt in their end.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the only time torture can be understood, for what it is. The whole time I was doing so, I'd be asking them if they then fully understood, if they then knew how it felt, how they made the ones they killed feel. It would be important that they 'finally' understood. The murdered would not die in vain, their death would seal their killers edification, finally, one way or another, I would make absolutely sure that it was certain they finally understood.

Obviously I didn't die in SERE school, but everyone cried at it's completion, including me. It was back in the days when it was a very hard school, they used the waterboard then. For me it started when a crusty old Senior Chief (E8) smacked me in the face so hard, I saw stars, then things got serious.