Philosophy Now Forum

Yes, I agree with "instinctive and habitual".

Impulsive, where does that fit in?

Mark Question wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

Mark Question wrote: 2. are we deterministic agents in a deterministic world? our fate is there somewhere even if we do not see our future, only expectations, predictions, forecasts?

Determinism does not imply fatalism, nor does it imply that the future is know or can be know with certainty.
It just says that actions are the result of antecedent conditions. That is true for robots as well as humans.
Humans have the ability to act, and to make account of it, robots do not. Humans talk about their choices knowingly, robots do not.

deterministic past does not imply deterministic future? and non-deterministic future implies deterministic past? how?

how do you know what robots can or can not do in the future?

all human abilities are not part of one deterministic world?

Why are you asking these odd questions?
Maybe you should read more carefully?

chaz wyman wrote: Why are you asking these odd questions?
Maybe you should read more carefully?

i dont know. i asked wikipedia and got some answers.

so, fatalism, predeterminism and causal determinism are different. how you see deterministic future? pretermined fate we have?

rantal wrote:Why must there be a presumption?
Things that are identical have identical properties (leibniz law) ask yourself this, do mind and brain have identical properties?

all the best, rantal

do price and product have identical properties?

Mark Question wrote:

chaz wyman wrote: Why are you asking these odd questions?
Maybe you should read more carefully?

i dont know. i asked wikipedia and got some answers.

so, fatalism, predeterminism and causal determinism are different. how you see deterministic future? pretermined fate we have?

basically we have 4 concepts here called by a variety of names and which are sometimes confused. I think the clearest nomenclature to adopt is as I list below with a brief explanation of each

Pre-destiny; the concept that all future time is mapped out, we are but poor puppets of fate

Causality; for every action there is a sufficient cause. Is often thought that this leads to strict determinism but recent science has shown this to be false and even questioned the validity of causality

Strict Determinism; the concept that given the initial conditions of the universe it all events are determined by those conditions. This differs from Pre-destiny in that no concept of a deity of fate is involved just causality

Psychological Determinism; all our thoughts and actions are determined by what we experience and what we have thought and how we have acted before.

Hope that helps, rantal

Mark Question wrote:

chaz wyman wrote: Why are you asking these odd questions?
Maybe you should read more carefully?

i dont know. i asked wikipedia and got some answers.

so, fatalism, predeterminism and causal determinism are different. how you see deterministic future? pretermined fate we have?

The future is wholly determined by the present. But the future cannot be know fully and with certainty due to complexity. For that reason 'predetermination' or 'fatalism' is only significant if you believe in god, or some other means by which you believe that the future has already been designed or is known.

Thus if you believe in a omniscient god then you are bound to believe that god has to know the future. Many who accept this also have the incompatible belief in free-will. The point being that is god knows the future, as he must - then who knew when he created you what your fate would be. Thus he designs sinners and saints, and has known their future since the beginning of time.

So for me, an atheist, I am sure that cause and effect are reliable enough to predict events in the near future, but I don't have to worry about my fate as I cannot say, not can anyone else say what the future brings.

rantal wrote:

Mark Question wrote:

chaz wyman wrote: Why are you asking these odd questions?
Maybe you should read more carefully?

i dont know. i asked wikipedia and got some answers.

so, fatalism, predeterminism and causal determinism are different. how you see deterministic future? pretermined fate we have?

basically we have 4 concepts here called by a variety of names and which are sometimes confused. I think the clearest nomenclature to adopt is as I list below with a brief explanation of each

Pre-destiny; the concept that all future time is mapped out, we are but poor puppets of fate

Causality; for every action there is a sufficient cause. Is often thought that this leads to strict determinism but recent science has shown this to be false and even questioned the validity of causality

Strict Determinism; the concept that given the initial conditions of the universe it all events are determined by those conditions. This differs from Pre-destiny in that no concept of a deity of fate is involved just causality

Psychological Determinism; all our thoughts and actions are determined by what we experience and what we have thought and how we have acted before.

Hope that helps, rantal

There is also Fatalism, which holds that no matter what you do, even if you intervene knowing a person's fate, they will still suffer the same fate. There is a good scene in Lawrence of Arabia, where Lawrence returns to the desert to save a boy who has fallen back- they all tell him that his fate is set to die. Later Lawrence is forced by circumstance to execute him for murder. Those that told him the boy's fate was set, simply say "It was written".

rantal wrote:And how does that differ form pre-destiny

all the best, rantal?

If by "that" you mean Fatalism, it is that Fatalism is a reaction to or attitude to a belief in predestination, but one that erroneously asserts that human action is possible to has no effect against the design of god or gods. Not just a belief in predestination as such.

chaz wyman wrote:

rantal wrote:And how does that differ form pre-destiny

all the best, rantal?

If by "that" you mean Fatalism, it is that Fatalism is a reaction to or attitude to a belief in predestination, but one that erroneously asserts that human action is possible to has no effect against the design of god or gods. Not just a belief in predestination as such.

Yes ok, Fatalism will do, the reason I choose 'Pre-destiny' rather than that was to give the broadest possible catchment; to include those versions that rely not on a concept of 'fate' but of 'will of the gods, etc.'

So, then Fatalism would be one version of Pre-destiny and another might be ummm, well I don't have a name for it but I am sure someone has coined a phrase at some time, in any case it would be that god or gods have laid out all future time and nothing we can do alters that.

all the best, rantal

rantal wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

rantal wrote:And how does that differ form pre-destiny

all the best, rantal?

If by "that" you mean Fatalism, it is that Fatalism is a reaction to or attitude to a belief in predestination, but one that erroneously asserts that human action is possible to has no effect against the design of god or gods. Not just a belief in predestination as such.

Yes ok, Fatalism will do, the reason I choose 'Pre-destiny' rather than that was to give the broadest possible catchment; to include those versions that rely not on a concept of 'fate' but of 'will of the gods, etc.'

So, then Fatalism would be one version of Pre-destiny and another might be ummm, well I don't have a name for it but I am sure someone has coined a phrase at some time, in any case it would be that god or gods have laid out all future time and nothing we can do alters that.

all the best, rantal

I think the key point in my post was that which was in italics. It's more of a subcategory of a belief in predestination.
For example; there are many "atheisms". Definitively it is an absence in a belief in god or gods. But within that there are the reasons; anti theism which hold that belief in god is harmful; agnosticism which holds that god, as defined is unknowable; Heathenism in which a particular god (eg a Christian one) is rejected; ignorance of gods; and I suppose you could think of other categories of thought around not believing in God.

chaz wyman wrote: The future is wholly determined by the present. But the future cannot be know fully and with certainty due to complexity.

So for me, an atheist, I am sure that cause and effect are reliable enough to predict events in the near future, but I don't have to worry about my fate as I cannot say, not can anyone else say what the future brings.

1.the future is wholly determined by the present? we have determined fate? present is determined by the past? determined by the big bang?

2. have you onthological "The future is wholly determined by the present", and epistemological "I am sure that cause and effect are reliable enough to predict events" sentences here?

Mark Question wrote:

rantal wrote:Why must there be a presumption?
Things that are identical have identical properties (leibniz law) ask yourself this, do mind and brain have identical properties?

all the best, rantal

do price and product have identical properties?

do mind and brain have same beeing and more coherent and scientific prediction models than dualistic free will?
or do you find onthological, metaphysical speculations more useful?

Mark Question wrote:

Mark Question wrote:

rantal wrote:Why must there be a presumption?
Things that are identical have identical properties (leibniz law) ask yourself this, do mind and brain have identical properties?

all the best, rantal

do price and product have identical properties?

do mind and brain have same beeing and more coherent and scientific prediction models than dualistic free will?
or do you find onthological, metaphysical speculations more useful?

Price and product are not the same thing and do not have identical properties, indeed the price is a property of the product

I am not sure what you are asking with your next sentence

all the best, rantal