Equality

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Equality

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

martinm wrote:After the Equality and human rights subject was ended I thought you might like to ponder on this:

The problem with Equality, is, unless we are all meticulous and generous with surpluses, somebody has to define, administer and police Equality. The makes a lifetime work for these civil servants of the 'state'.
As individual wealth fluctuates, the definition of equality changes, Certain people decide they 'know' what this definition should be and regard themselves as a special 'elite' or 'class' or 'leader' , deserving perhaps of more that is regarded as the dues for the others. The 'elites' police and condemn categories of behavior that is outside what they consider just, (excluding their own, of course). adding in their personal prejudices and politics. The 'elite' administration grows and grows, the elite get richer and richer.
The European Union is based on ever closer laws to treat all people of Europe equally, and you can judge for yourself the outcome: Ever more regulation, until the people can stand it no more. hence the breakup of the EU.
Equality, as it is talked about, has nothing whatever to do with 'surplus'; neither is it related directly to riches. No one is talking about giving everyone equal pay.
Equality implies an even playing field in rights to education, health and the law. It implies that all persons regardless of race, birth, and any other categories that come under the purview should receive the same treatment.
Obviously this tends to an ideal such as the state provision of education for all, maybe health care and certainly legal aid. It also involves the enactment of laws against discrimination due to sex, race and so on.

Personally I think it is no co-incidence that the enactment of the provisions of equality over the last 120 years have coincided with the highest increasing in living standards, health and education; as well as a massive improvement in economic activity. It is the equality that encourages the surplus.

The reason is simple enough. Economic activity has increased due to the fact that the resources have been pushed in a downward direction, which has stimulated demand across the board. The demand has led to labour saving devices, sanitation, roads, and the whole panoply of infrastructure built to accommodate this new economic activity.
In previous generations capitalism has tended to polarise wealth and created a vast amount of poverty/slavery with a tiny minority holding all the wealth. And there is a continuing tendency for this to recur again and again, where capitalism is left unregulated. The ultimate consequence, or end game of which is one fat bloke holding all the wealth whilst the rest of us scratch for the shit that falls off his table.
It is this very tendency towards "equality" which has mitigated against the extreme polarisation of wealth to create the low-end demand that fuels economic growth.

Periods of recession are the means by which the rich encourage polarity to get richer. Austerity is a sham.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"If someone "needs" something, why are we duty bound to supply it?"

I say: we aren't (I'm not).

Plenty of folks disagree with me.

Those folks, then, should devote themselves (as each likes and can) to supplying the needy with whatever the needy 'need'.

As long as those gracious folks leave me be, I could not care less how they dispose of their resources.

The problem arises when those gracious folks decide I should contribute as well (and to hell with what 'I' decide).

Never enough, it seems, to do as one likes...always gotta drag others along for the ride.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:"If someone "needs" something, why are we duty bound to supply it?"

I say: we aren't (I'm not).
No but you enjoy a certain amount of rights, and if you want to live in this society you have also an implied responsibility to support others in the pursuit of those rights. You already do that using the government and legal system as proxy.
henry quirk wrote: Plenty of folks disagree with me.

Those folks, then, should devote themselves (as each likes and can) to supplying the needy with whatever the needy 'need'.
People disagree with you being in a state of contradiction. Whilst you enjoy the same rights as others, it appears that you do not think they have the same rights.
henry quirk wrote: As long as those gracious folks leave me be, I could not care less how they dispose of their resources.

The problem arises when those gracious folks decide I should contribute as well (and to hell with what 'I' decide).
There is no problem here. You can always bugger off and find another country where those rights are not enjoyed by the people.
Maybe you should try Korea, or Timbuktu. Where ever you land up you will find it impossible to avoid some responsibility to your fellow humans - (you are human I take it?)
henry quirk wrote: Never enough, it seems, to do as one likes...always gotta drag others along for the ride.
Life is hard. Go and live on an Island, or you could always return to your home planet.
duszek
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Equality

Post by duszek »

In one of his films Charlie Chaplin was about to eat his sandwich, sitting in the street.
But he noticed a hungry beggar sitting next to him and devouring his sandwich with his eyes.
C.C. could not enjoy his modest meal under these circumstances, he had to share it.
Most people would do like him, I suppose.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"you enjoy a certain amount of rights"

Yep: mainly being left alone...certainly: no one other than me is putting bread on my table and roof over my head...not you, not the state, not the community...me, by way of my own work, my own efforts, and what I trade (pay) fairly for.

#

"if you want to live in this society you have also an implied responsibility to support others in the pursuit of those rights"

I give them what I get: being left alone.

Seems wholly equitable to me.

#

"You can always bugger off and find another country...Go and live on an Island"

Wow...like I haven't heard and read these tired prescriptions god only knows how many times.

Pedestrian hooey.

#

"Life is hard"

No shit, Sherlock...that's the main reason it behooves one to take care of him- or her-self.

##

"Most people would do like him, I suppose"

As is the prerogative (not obligation) of each.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

So we're at the point where we've got two sides:

Henry, who casts reasonable doubt on the "universal" belief in equality,

Versus

Others who are mightily annoyed, but haven't got any means of proving equality.

They can't argue that "it's in his interest" to believe in equality, because he sees it isn't. They can't argue "he owes us to grant equality," because they can't explain the grounds of "owing" without depending on some assumption of equal deserving, which is the point they owe him to prove. They can't argue "most people would believe in equality," because even if it were true (and on a worldwide scale it certainly isn't) then they have to prove that Henry has no right to be in the minority.

They've run out of ammo, it seems. So now they're getting annoyed and abusive, and want to banish him to an island.

Interesting. They remind me of the guy in the car chase in old gangster films: when they run out of bullets, they throw the gun.

But shouldn't we keep this discussion philosophical, rather than base it on personal insults?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"So now they're getting annoyed and abusive"

HA!

It's okay...I got think skin... ;)
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"philosophical...personal insults"

Nowadays, it seems you can't have one without the other.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sadly, yes...

Maybe it's just rudeness or incomprehension, or maybe it's really what's at stake in the things we discuss that sometimes provokes flashes of anger. The thick skin is a good idea.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Equality

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:Sadly, yes...

Maybe it's just rudeness or incomprehension, or maybe it's really what's at stake in the things we discuss that sometimes provokes flashes of anger. The thick skin is a good idea.

I believe rudeness and incomprehension are certainly part of the problem and the incomprehension might come from people not seeing what is really there but seeing what they want or expect to see. I know that in real life most people don't see what is right in front of them and on a forum people will read a post and not read what has been written. I'm not sure why most people are like that and I'm not sure if there is anything that can be done in the way of training that will fix it. I like to think that some occupations teach it in the course of preforming the task but I don't know for sure.

The rudeness may be the result of the anonymity of the internet forum. Why be nice to someone you will probably never meet in person? Along with thick skin, not caring about the other guy helps as well.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:"If someone "needs" something, why are we duty bound to supply it?"
.
Depends.
It depends on what it is, and whether you are part of the species or not.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:"you enjoy a certain amount of rights"

Yep: mainly being left alone...certainly: no one other than me is putting bread on my table and roof over my head...not you, not the state, not the community...me, by way of my own work, my own efforts, and what I trade (pay) fairly for.

If you want to be left alone, then why are you seeking validation and seeking attention on this Forum.
WHy not just bugger off?
The fact is that you cannot escape your primitive human need to seek human company and to belong to a community.
You are just shooting yourself in the foot logically, but appearing here, and portraying your self as a sick little puppy.
You are crawling into the light of the campfire wanting to be noticed but are snapping at the hands that are offered to you in help. Despite that you are still stealing scraps from the edge of the habitus.


#

"if you want to live in this society you have also an implied responsibility to support others in the pursuit of those rights"

I give them what I get: being left alone.

BooHoo!

Seems wholly equitable to me.

#

"You can always bugger off and find another country...Go and live on an Island"

Wow...like I haven't heard and read these tired prescriptions god only knows how many times.

There is a good reason you have heard this all before.
Maybe you should remove your fingers from your ears?

#
.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

Depends.
It depends on what it is, and whether you are part of the species or not.
I don't understand, Hobbes: what "depends," why does "what it is" matter?

And what fact about being "a part of a species," as you put it, necessitates equality?

I still see nothing that defeats or, for that matter, even challenges) HQ here.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Equality

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Depends.
It depends on what it is, and whether you are part of the species or not.
I don't understand, Hobbes: what "depends," why does "what it is" matter?

And what fact about being "a part of a species," as you put it, necessitates equality?

I still see nothing that defeats or, for that matter, even challenges) HQ here.
Okay - I'll fight you for it.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

Well, we needn't fight. I'm just interested to see if *anyone* has a single reason why Henry is wrong. My suspicion is that from a purely secular worldview perspective, they can't. But I'm all fine with being proved wrong about that guess. It just hasn't happened so far.
Post Reply