Philosophy Now Forum

bobevenson wrote: Well, first of all, unions are hardly democratic. But speaking of democracy, the second president of the United States, John Adams, once said, "There never was a democracy that didn't commit suicide." Democracy is mob rule, where 51% of the people are able to take away the rights of the other 49%.

1) If unions are not democratic then why are you invoking John Adams' comments?
2) You are contradicting yourself, by attacking unions for being undemocratic, by saying democracy is bad.
3) You are clearly anti-democratic which pretty much goes along with your views that society needs to be controlled by rich elites.
A little honesty might help you argument.

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote: Well, first of all, unions are hardly democratic. But speaking of democracy, the second president of the United States, John Adams, once said, "There never was a democracy that didn't commit suicide." Democracy is mob rule, where 51% of the people are able to take away the rights of the other 49%.

1) If unions are not democratic then why are you invoking John Adams' comments?
2) You are contradicting yourself, by attacking unions for being undemocratic, by saying democracy is bad.
3) You are clearly anti-democratic which pretty much goes along with your views that society needs to be controlled by rich elites.
A little honesty might help you argument.

Unions, with the help of the government, force workers to join. What's so democratic about that? Democracy is fine, but it needs limitations in terms of human rights that can't be voted away (like the Bill of Rights in the U.S Constitution, whcih you neither understand nor have the slightess appreciation for).

bobevenson wrote: Unions, with the help of the government, force workers to join. What's so democratic about that? Democracy is fine, but it needs limitations in terms of human rights that can't be voted away (like the Bill of Rights in the U.S Constitution, whcih you neither understand nor have the slightess appreciation for).

If democracy is 'fine" then why did you criticise it?

Unions are democratic, by law. Get over it!

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote: Unions, with the help of the government, force workers to join. What's so democratic about that? Democracy is fine, but it needs limitations in terms of human rights that can't be voted away (like the Bill of Rights in the U.S Constitution, whcih you neither understand nor have the slightess appreciation for).

If democracy is 'fine" then why did you criticise it?

Unions are democratic, by law. Get over it!

Unions are not democratic; they force employees to join, and they force employers to deduct union dues without permisssion. That's not democratic, that's your down-and-dirty, ruthless, mafia-style "make them an offer they can't refuse" hoodlum politics, my friend, and I look forward to the day when that last jagged nail is thrust into their rotting coffins if not their criminal necks!

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote: Unions, with the help of the government, force workers to join. What's so democratic about that? Democracy is fine, but it needs limitations in terms of human rights that can't be voted away (like the Bill of Rights in the U.S Constitution, whcih you neither understand nor have the slightess appreciation for).

If democracy is 'fine" then why did you criticise it?

Unions are democratic, by law. Get over it!

Unions are not democratic; they force employees to join, and they force employers to deduct union dues without permisssion. That's not democratic, that's your down-and-dirty, ruthless, mafia-style "make them an offer they can't refuse" hoodlum politics, my friend, and I look forward to the day when that last jagged nail is thrust into their rotting coffins if not their criminal necks!

It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

Only a poor fool like you would equate democracy with the likes of Jimmy Hoffa unionism, and you know what happended to him!!!

What is the cost of union membership?

reasonvemotion wrote:What is the cost of union membership?

If you mean financial cost, I guess it depends on the union, but I guarantee you it's not free. If you mean psychological cost, how do you measure the loss of self-esteem?

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

Only a poor fool like you would equate democracy with the likes of Jimmy Hoffa unionism, and you know what happended to him!!!

It's just like you to base the whole world on one example.
I don't base American democracy on Nixon, you should not do so with Hoffa.

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

you might be confusing democracy and rule by majority

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

Only a poor fool like you would equate democracy with the likes of Jimmy Hoffa unionism, and you know what happended to him!!!

It's just like you to base the whole world on one example.
I don't base American democracy on Nixon, you should not do so with Hoffa.

Oh, I could go on and on. How about John L. Lewis, who almost single-handedly brought America to its knees, even during war time!

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

you might be confusing democracy and rule by majority

Nope. There is no real distinction.
A democracy is the rule of a represented franchise (selected groups of people with a vote).

chaz wyman wrote:A democracy is the rule of a represented franchise (selected groups of people with a vote).

The only proper democracy is one where everybody in the society has a vote, including, prisoners, foreigners and babies in the womb.

reasonvemotion wrote:

What is the cost of union membership?

Bobevenson wrote:

If you mean financial cost, I guess it depends on the union, but I guarantee you it's not free. If you mean psychological cost, how do you measure the loss of self-esteem?

I mean financial cost. Is it a percentage of the wage, I am trying to visualise how expensive or inexpensive it is to become a member. If one is forced to become a member, maybe the cost would be an issue for some and if the union doesn't perform can the person get their money back. That seems reasonable enough. Make the unions work harder for their members.

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:It's completely democratic. What planet are you from?

you might be confusing democracy and rule by majority

what? so all the countries in the world that are ruled by the majority (of voters) are not democracies?