Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:13 pm It's Hamas that's not making any sense.

What kind of psychopaths are so determined to liquidate their enemies that they push their own people into the meat-grinder of war, and will not allow the machine to stop? What kinds of people behead babies and push their own children into hideous acts against civilians, build terrorist tunnels under hospitals, prevent civilians from fleeing, use aid supplies to create bombs, deprive their own citizens of food and water, and refuse to quit hating, even when they're on the brink of utter destruction themselves? Who are these people?

Have they no consciences left? Are they insane? These are very good questions.

First, the real question should and must be: What are the good questions?

Well, I suggest that the answers to the questions posed by IC in the above quote is that the "psychopaths" he is referring to are absolute angels compared to a person such as himself who believes that if he makes it into the eternal bliss and beauty of heaven,...

(and assuming he hasn't been reduced to some kind of bovine level of consciousness)

...he will be perfectly accepting of the knowledge that perhaps his own mother and father, sisters and brothers, wife and children are writhing in agony in the fires of Hell - for ETERNITY.

I mean, why in the world would someone who thinks it would be perfectly okay for his defenseless friends and loved ones to be hideously tortured in unthinkable ways, again, for ETERNITY,...

...be concerned over the violence and torture taking place in the Middle East, when it is so utterly trivial compared to what he's willing to accept after he makes it into heaven?

Yet here he is with the unmitigated gall to ask...

"...Have they no consciences left? Are they insane?..."

Indeed, cannot the same be asked more emphatically about the occupants of IC's (Christianity's) vision of heaven?
_______

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:59 pm Do you have any justification that Hamas broke the ceasefire? As far as I recall, the last ceasefire was temporary.

Look it up. It took about 15 minutes before Hamas broke the ceasefire, both with ambushes and rockets.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm

and release of hostages

Only some, only a few. And they killed, tortured and raped others. What's your plan for dealing with that?

The violence is not a proper answer.

You're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you DON'T want them to do; I asked you for your plan as to what they could do instead of violence, so we can suggest to them a way for them to be able to stop.

Furthermore, I want to know what should be done with the Hamas members who were complicit in the rapes and murders in southern Israel. I'd be intested in your opinion on what the world should do about them.

Go ahead.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:11 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:59 pm Do you have any justification that Hamas broke the ceasefire? As far as I recall, the last ceasefire was temporary.

Look it up. It took about 15 minutes before Hamas broke the ceasefire, both with ambushes and rockets.

Please give me the source.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm
Only some, only a few. And they killed, tortured and raped others. What's your plan for dealing with that?

The violence is not a proper answer.

You're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you DON'T want them to do; I asked you for your plan as to what they could do instead of violence, so we can suggest to them a way for them to be able to stop.

Furthermore, I want to know what should be done with the Hamas members who were complicit in the rapes and murders in southern Israel. I'd be intested in your opinion on what the world should do about them.

Go ahead.

As I said before violence brings violence. It is a closed loop. So if violence, killing more than 20 times than they were killed by the other side, does not satisfy your thirst for blood then nothing can help you. Violence is not a proper answer to violence. By the way, why do you evade my other questions: Aren't you a Cristian? Isn't the main teaching of Jesus to love unconditionally, even your enemy?

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:11 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:59 pm Do you have any justification that Hamas broke the ceasefire? As far as I recall, the last ceasefire was temporary.

Look it up. It took about 15 minutes before Hamas broke the ceasefire, both with ambushes and rockets.

Please give me the source.

Wiki, under "Israel-Hamas Ceasefire." It reads, "About two weeks following the ceasefire's end, a senior Israeli officer said that Hamas broke the ceasefire 15 minutes after it began with a series of attacks by dozens of fighters against Israeli positions in the town of Salatin, near Jabaliya, which stopped after Israeli troops repulsed them and killed about 20 Hamas fighters.[135] Israel accused Hamas of launching rockets into Israel about 15 minutes after the start of the pause, and claimed that it had not retaliated."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm

The violence is not a proper answer.

You're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you DON'T want them to do; I asked you for your plan as to what they could do instead of violence, so we can suggest to them a way for them to be able to stop.

Furthermore, I want to know what should be done with the Hamas members who were complicit in the rapes and murders in southern Israel. I'd be intested in your opinion on what the world should do about them.

Go ahead.

As I said before violence brings violence.

No, that was no answer. It just dodged the question. You need to say what Israel should do. Right now, what you're doing is telling them to commit suicide. That's not remotely plausible.

What SHOULD Israel do?

Go.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:47 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:11 pm
Look it up. It took about 15 minutes before Hamas broke the ceasefire, both with ambushes and rockets.

Please give me the source.

Wiki, under "Israel-Hamas Ceasefire." It reads, "About two weeks following the ceasefire's end, a senior Israeli officer said that Hamas broke the ceasefire 15 minutes after it began with a series of attacks by dozens of fighters against Israeli positions in the town of Salatin, near Jabaliya, which stopped after Israeli troops repulsed them and killed about 20 Hamas fighters.[135] Israel accused Hamas of launching rockets into Israel about 15 minutes after the start of the pause, and claimed that it had not retaliated."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm
You're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you DON'T want them to do; I asked you for your plan as to what they could do instead of violence, so we can suggest to them a way for them to be able to stop.

Furthermore, I want to know what should be done with the Hamas members who were complicit in the rapes and murders in southern Israel. I'd be intested in your opinion on what the world should do about them.

Go ahead.

As I said before violence brings violence.

No, that was no answer. It just dodged the question. You need to say what Israel should do. Right now, what you're doing is telling them to commit suicide. That's not remotely plausible.

What SHOULD Israel do?

Go.

Aren't you a Christian? Is the teaching of Jesus about love a vain?

What SHOULD Israel do?

Stop destroying Gaza.

Stop killing Palestinians.

Get the hostages back.

Start negotiating a 1, 2, 3 state solution.

If there are more rocket attacks from Gaza, then drone attack and smart bomb that specific area in retaliation.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:47 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:41 pm
Please give me the source.

Wiki, under "Israel-Hamas Ceasefire." It reads, "About two weeks following the ceasefire's end, a senior Israeli officer said that Hamas broke the ceasefire 15 minutes after it began with a series of attacks by dozens of fighters against Israeli positions in the town of Salatin, near Jabaliya, which stopped after Israeli troops repulsed them and killed about 20 Hamas fighters.[135] Israel accused Hamas of launching rockets into Israel about 15 minutes after the start of the pause, and claimed that it had not retaliated."

As I said before violence brings violence.

No, that was no answer. It just dodged the question. You need to say what Israel should do. Right now, what you're doing is telling them to commit suicide. That's not remotely plausible.

What SHOULD Israel do?

Go.

Aren't you a Christian? Is the teaching of Jesus about love a vain?

I'll answer your question. But you have to answer mine first, because I asked first. That's reasonable.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 pm

What SHOULD Israel do?

Stop destroying Gaza.

Okay. How do they stop Hamas from killing them, then?

And what do we do with Hamas, since they committed such attrocities?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:47 pm Wiki, under "Israel-Hamas Ceasefire." It reads, "About two weeks following the ceasefire's end, a senior Israeli officer said that Hamas broke the ceasefire 15 minutes after it began with a series of attacks by dozens of fighters against Israeli positions in the town of Salatin, near Jabaliya, which stopped after Israeli troops repulsed them and killed about 20 Hamas fighters.[135] Israel accused Hamas of launching rockets into Israel about 15 minutes after the start of the pause, and claimed that it had not retaliated."


No, that was no answer. It just dodged the question. You need to say what Israel should do. Right now, what you're doing is telling them to commit suicide. That's not remotely plausible.

What SHOULD Israel do?

Go.

Aren't you a Christian? Is the teaching of Jesus about love a vain?

I'll answer your question. But you have to answer mine first, because I asked first. That's reasonable.

Keep your ass inside your country and defend. They have Iron Dome so why bother with rocketing? Keep your mind open to negotiation.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 pm

What SHOULD Israel do?

Stop destroying Gaza.

Stop killing Palestinians.

Get the hostages back.

Start negotiating a 1, 2, 3 state solution.

If there are more rocket attacks from Gaza, then drone attack and smart bomb that specific area in retaliation.

Yes, very reasonable answer. They have access to all goodies including smart bombs yet they use dumb bombs that mainly kill innocent civilians.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:19 pm I'll answer your question. But you have to answer mine first, because I asked first. That's reasonable.

Keep your ass inside your country and defend. They have Iron Dome so why bother with rocketing? Keep your mind open to negotiation.

They did that. Hamas breeched their wall and murdered them. And Hamas vows not to stop murdering them, and will not even keep a ceasefire. So now what?

Okay. How do they stop Hamas from killing them, then?

Hamas has little ability to kill Israelis.

Israel has killed significantly more Palestinians in the last 10 years than Hamas has killed Israelis.

Israel has killed significantly more Palestinians since October 7 than Hamas killed in the October 7 attack.

And what do we do with Hamas, since they committed such atrocities?

Individuals commit atrocities.

Individuals have to be punished for the atrocities that they commit.

But now, Israel is punishing people who had no part in any atrocities.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:33 pm

Okay. How do they stop Hamas from killing them, then?

Hamas has little ability to kill Israelis.

Well, they killed 695, including women, children, the elderly...so yeah, they have "ability."

And what do we do with Hamas, since they committed such atrocities?

Individuals commit atrocities.

That's not an answer.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:30 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:19 pm I'll answer your question. But you have to answer mine first, because I asked first. That's reasonable.

Keep your ass inside your country and defend. They have Iron Dome so why bother with rocketing? Keep your mind open to negotiation.

They did that. Hamas breeched their wall and murdered them. And Hamas vows not to stop murdering them, and will not even keep a ceasefire. So now what?

They managed to repel Hamas so they in principle could defend themselves. Again, defend yourself within your border instead of destroying cities that lead to nearly 20,000 deaths. Keep your mind open to negotiation and try to see what is the source of the problem, namely occupation!

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:43 pm They managed to repel Hamas so they in principle could defend themselves.

How do they prevent Hamas from just doing it again? They have the tunnels, the rockets, the bombs, and the clearly-expressed death wish; they have rich and powerful backers, and live on your borders, and don't mind how many of their people have to die. How do you stop that?