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Well, look. If pointing out that you are lying doesn't piss you off then nothing will.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:28 amOr:By Jove, I think he's got it!Then again, maybe not.Are you sure it's atheists who are getting pissed off?
I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:33 amYou are deluded if you think you are pointing out that I am lying.
I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:33 amYou are deluded if you think you are pointing out that I am lying.
Tell that to Richard Feynman:
Non-sequitur.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:44 amTell that to Richard Feynman:
"we must keep all theories in our head, and every theoretical physicist that's any good knows six or seven theoretical representations for exactly the same physics." It's at 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-zWTU7X-k
Not to mention that you are intentionally blurring the line about what Feynman believed and what he said.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:44 amTell that to Richard Feynman:
"we must keep all theories in our head, and every theoretical physicist that's any good knows six or seven theoretical representations for exactly the same physics." It's at 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-zWTU7X-k
Again:
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:12 amWell no. That's your current understanding of the current understanding. Ex nihilo is one hypothesis, but there are many others.
And you tell me to learn some logic?
Try and get your head around underdetermination.
I've highlighted the part I am responding to.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:51 amIn fairness, I'm what most people call an agnostic, in that I don't know whether God (or gods) exists. I just don't call myself an agnostic in deference to the guy who invented the word:Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI'm agnostic.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:24 am I don't believe in God with a capital, nor gods without.
Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.
— Thomas Henry Huxley
I have no scientific grounds for not believing in God, I just happen not to and don't mind saying so.
Well, if agnostic is taken to mean not knowing if God exists, that is the position of everyone.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI started out life as an atheist watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos and other things on TV, however, my studies of Philosophy and other subjects in college left me agnostic. At this point, I'm still agnostic.
Any Christian who professes the importance of faith doesn't 'know' that God exists; they just happen to believe so. Christians are not left out of science. The problem that some Christians have is that they wish to believe that Biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark are literally true. The evidence strongly suggests they are not.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amAccording to IC and others, Christians have been "left out" of the sciences because of no other reason than they are Christians. IC thinks that's not fair. So I guess it's necessary to let more Christians into the sciences. I mean, let them see what's going on for themselves too. Maybe it will instill some sense into them and turn them into agnostics too? Is that possible?Insofar as science is a process of finding out what is true, the more one insists that the Bible is true, the more they shut themselves out of the process. Waking up tomorrow branded a heretic by some won't be any different to all the other days you have woken a heretic.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI mean, I'd hate to wake up tomorrow and find out that I'm a "heretic" because they don't agree with my agnosticism, however, maybe IC is right and science has been shutting Christians out of the process?
Am I a heretic to people who would do evil or am I a heretic to people who would not do evil?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:51 amIn fairness, I'm what most people call an agnostic, in that I don't know whether God (or gods) exists. I just don't call myself an agnostic in deference to the guy who invented the word:Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI'm agnostic.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:24 am I don't believe in God with a capital, nor gods without.
Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.
— Thomas Henry Huxley
I have no scientific grounds for not believing in God, I just happen not to and don't mind saying so.
Well, if agnostic is taken to mean not knowing if God exists, that is the position of everyone.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI started out life as an atheist watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos and other things on TV, however, my studies of Philosophy and other subjects in college left me agnostic. At this point, I'm still agnostic.
Any Christian who professes the importance of faith doesn't 'know' that God exists; they just happen to believe so. Christians are not left out of science. The problem that some Christians have is that they wish to believe that Biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark are literally true. The evidence strongly suggests they are not.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amAccording to IC and others, Christians have been "left out" of the sciences because of no other reason than they are Christians. IC thinks that's not fair. So I guess it's necessary to let more Christians into the sciences. I mean, let them see what's going on for themselves too. Maybe it will instill some sense into them and turn them into agnostics too? Is that possible?Insofar as science is a process of finding out what is true, the more one insists that the Bible is true, the more they shut themselves out of the process. Waking up tomorrow branded a heretic by some won't be any different to all the other days you have woken a heretic.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:31 amI mean, I'd hate to wake up tomorrow and find out that I'm a "heretic" because they don't agree with my agnosticism, however, maybe IC is right and science has been shutting Christians out of the process?
I can only explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:00 amAnd you tell me to learn some logic?Try and get your head around underdetermination.
"Nobody is ever going to be able to decide which one is right..." ibid: 2:00
I can only explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you.
Both, I suspect. Holding some religious belief doesn't necessarily make anyone a bad person. I think it depends on what punishment they think you deserve for disagreeing with them.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:18 pmI've highlighted the part I am responding to.
If it is the case that I am a "heretic", then am I a heretic to good people or am I a heretic to bad people? That's really all I'm interested in knowing.
Same thing really.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:21 pmAm I a heretic to people who would do evil or am I a heretic to people who would not do evil?
I don't use the term much, but in the secular sense, there are plenty of actions that could be described as evil, including some religious practices. What counts as evil in religion depends on the religion, but not complying with the religion is a common theme. Sorry I can't be more helpful.