compatibilism

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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:31 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:23 am ...includes both so-called forces of nature and man's reason, his native wit, which can offset some natural forces and enable him to stay alive. Man's reasoning ability is part of the deterministic universe but the content of that reasoning is created by men.
Now you are denying Determinism, and Compatibilism as well. You believe in free will, if you think "man's reason" and "native wit" can "offset some natural forces."
Good try, Immanuel
Not a "try." It's a fact. It's definitionally certain, regardless of what you may wish to suppose.

You can't say you believe in any human cognitive processes as being causal factors: call them "wit" or "reason" or "will" or whatever you want.
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Walker wrote:
W: This is why mistakes are the necessity that flow from the premise: "in an ordered universe, every event is a necessary event," rather than any event, being a matter of choice.
Every event that happened and will happen is a necessary event. All of Men's errors and all of men's successes are necessary events, but only God knows which is which, error or success.

In Christian theology Jesus was sent to give us an idea of which choices are errors and which are successes.
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:31 pm
Now you are denying Determinism, and Compatibilism as well. You believe in free will, if you think "man's reason" and "native wit" can "offset some natural forces."
Good try, Immanuel
Not a "try." It's a fact. It's definitionally certain, regardless of what you may wish to suppose.

You can't say you believe in any human cognitive processes as being causal factors: call them "wit" or "reason" or "will" or whatever you want.
You have not addressed the few points I made.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:04 pm

Good try, Immanuel
Not a "try." It's a fact. It's definitionally certain, regardless of what you may wish to suppose.

You can't say you believe in any human cognitive processes as being causal factors: call them "wit" or "reason" or "will" or whatever you want.
You have not addressed the few points I made.
There was nothing in there requiring it. Once you've confessed you believe that "wit," "reason" or "will' can "cause" things, your case is done...no matter what other explanations one might try to add to try to avoid the conclusion. Determinism requires that things like "wit" and "reason" are no active part of a causal chain. They don't explain a thing, allegedly. Rather, they are merely odd "feelings" that, for some reason Determinists never try to explain, one particular kind of predetermined creature experiences as material forces do what material forces do.

To refer to them, Determinists have to hold, is not to explain any part of the actual dynamic of the causal chain itself: rather, they are only "epiphenomena," (which is their word, not mine), feelings that may "supervene" (their word, too) upon some causal-material actions, but fail to be any essential part of them at all.

That's clearly not what you believe. So you're not a Determinist. In fact, you don't even know what one is.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Once you've confessed you believe that "wit," "reason" or "will' can "cause" things, your case is done...no matter what other explanations one might try to add to try to avoid the conclusion. Determinism requires that things like "wit" and "reason" are no active part of a causal chain.
Causes are not causes of "things" but of change; wit and reason are more potent for change than are weakness and silliness.
Men are agents of more far-reaching changes than billiard balls , thermostats, or computers. A powerful, intelligent man is more an agent for change than a weak silly man.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:01 am Immanuel Can wrote:
Once you've confessed you believe that "wit," "reason" or "will' can "cause" things, your case is done...no matter what other explanations one might try to add to try to avoid the conclusion. Determinism requires that things like "wit" and "reason" are no active part of a causal chain.
Causes are not causes of "things" but of change;
"Change" is in "things."
Men are agents of more far-reaching changes...
That's a denial of Determinism and Compatibilism. Both believe men are not "agents" at all.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote
"Change" is in "things."
But things do not exist unless change happens. Change is intrinsic to temporal existence itself.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:57 pm Immanuel Can wrote
"Change" is in "things."
But things do not exist unless change happens.
You'll have to explain what you mean, there. "Change," by definition, is usually understood to be a movement from one state of being into another. I don't know of anybody who thinks "change" is itself a state of being.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:35 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:57 pm Immanuel Can wrote
"Change" is in "things."
But things do not exist unless change happens.
You'll have to explain what you mean, there. "Change," by definition, is usually understood to be a movement from one state of being into another. I don't know of anybody who thinks "change" is itself a state of being.
One state of being to another is not only temporal it's also spatial.
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RCSaunders
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Re: compatibilism

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:13 pm Every event that happened and will happen is a necessary event.
Then you cannot know anything, including that statement. All that you call knowing is just a collection of necessary events as meaningless as a the sounds of a babbling brook or dead trees falling in the woods. When you write, "Every event that happened and will happen is a necessary event," or anything else, those, according to your view, are just meaningless necessary events that happen. Your belief the statement you made actually means something is just an illusion, another meaningless event that had to happen.

The odd thing is, you really do not believe that. In real life, you get upset with people who do things you think are wrong, as though they actually had a choice in the matter. If you have children, I'm sure it would never occur to you to excuse your child's forgetting to flush the toilet, because it was just an event that had to happened. I doubt very much you would excuse the clerk who short-changed you on the grounds it was just an event that happened. You hold everyone responsible for what they do, including yourself, but that contradicts the view that what human beings do is just events that had to happen, doesn't it?
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iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism

Post by iambiguous »

Compatibilism: Can free will and determinism co-exist?
Stanford philosophy professor takes the side of a beleaguered theory – that predetermination and free will are not mutually exclusive.
BY MAX MCCLURE at Stanford News
Drawing on the works of 18th-century British philosopher David Hume, Perry has set out two separate responses to the incompatibilists' complaint. The key is to prove that "will not" is not the same as "cannot."

Weak theory of laws

As Perry put it, "Hume thought the laws of nature were just generalizations that hadn't been refuted." In other words, Hume wouldn't say a glass falls to the ground because some fundamental law requires it to. He'd point out that we only say gravity exists because we saw the glass fall.
And that's basically where we still are today. There's the law of gravity that appears to be applicable to all entities that have mass. But we don't know how, going back to the existence of existence itself, it came to be what it is. And we certainly don't know why it came to be what it is and not something else. Or why it even exists at all.
While the distinction may seem trivial, Hume's view implies that the existence of gravity could be proved or disproved every time we drop something.
Or the distinction between determinism and compatibilism? Moral responsibility in a determined universe could be proved or disproved every time we choose a behavior? Only as with gravity there is still that gap between what we think we know about the human brain and all that there is to be known about it.
It also means that statements about future events are neither true nor false until they happen. "This glass will fall if I let go" is a sentence that will prove accurate or not only when I drop the glass. It's an approach that means the laws of physics are potentially redefined with every moment of existence.
Or, here, Mary will be morally responsibility if she chooses to have that abortion tomorrow because, what, my brain is either compelled or not compelled to argue that? The laws of physics and the human brain potentially redefined for us too. Whatever that even actually means.
Perry calls Hume's view the "weak theory of laws" and thinks it would satisfactorily resolve the incompatibilist question – by letting the "future events" tail wag the "universal physical laws" dog.

"The thing is," he said, "I don't agree with it. Hume didn't really believe in causation, but I think you can see it happening around you."
Fine. Would someone here be willing to explain how, given their own chosen behaviors from day to day, the past, present and future play themselves out in their own lives given the "weak theory of laws".

The part where we go beyond theory.
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iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism

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In real life, you get upset with people who do things you think are wrong, as though they actually had a choice in the matter. If you have children, I'm sure it would never occur to you to excuse your child's forgetting to flush the toilet, because it was just an event that had to happened. I doubt very much you would excuse the clerk who short-changed you on the grounds it was just an event that happened. You hold everyone responsible for what they do, including yourself, but that contradicts the view that what human beings do is just events that had to happen, doesn't it?
Back to dreams.

In our dreams, we are convinced that what we think, feel, say and do is in fact the real world. Right? In the dream. Or at least I do.

But in fact it is a "reality" wholly manufactured by our brains!

Though, sure, the waking world reality may be different. But beyond having this "gut feeling" that it is and devising "philosophical arguments" predicated on what you insist is true in a "world of words" how exactly do you go about demonstrating that the waking world reality is not just the psychological illusion of free will.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:16 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:35 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:57 pm Immanuel Can wrote
But things do not exist unless change happens.
You'll have to explain what you mean, there. "Change," by definition, is usually understood to be a movement from one state of being into another. I don't know of anybody who thinks "change" is itself a state of being.
One state of being to another is not only temporal it's also spatial.
Is that your attempt to explain? I can't quite tell.
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:46 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:13 pm Every event that happened and will happen is a necessary event.
Then you cannot know anything, including that statement. All that you call knowing is just a collection of necessary events as meaningless as a the sounds of a babbling brook or dead trees falling in the woods. When you write, "Every event that happened and will happen is a necessary event," or anything else, those, according to your view, are just meaningless necessary events that happen. Your belief the statement you made actually means something is just an illusion, another meaningless event that had to happen.

The odd thing is, you really do not believe that. In real life, you get upset with people who do things you think are wrong, as though they actually had a choice in the matter. If you have children, I'm sure it would never occur to you to excuse your child's forgetting to flush the toilet, because it was just an event that had to happened. I doubt very much you would excuse the clerk who short-changed you on the grounds it was just an event that happened. You hold everyone responsible for what they do, including yourself, but that contradicts the view that what human beings do is just events that had to happen, doesn't it?

All that you call knowing is just a collection of necessary events as meaningless as a the sounds of a babbling brook or dead trees falling in the woods.
We create our meanings from phenomena.
I'm sure it would never occur to you to excuse your child's forgetting to flush the toilet, because it was just an event that had to happened. I doubt very much you would excuse the clerk who short-changed you on the grounds it was just an event that happened. You hold everyone responsible for what they do, including yourself,
One trains one's children without blaming them.

Responsible, free adults are responsible not because they have Free Will but because they participate in this world : freedom depends upon the restrictions set by the wellbeing of this world. Responsibility is a necessary condition for freedom . (NB so-called 'Free Will' is not free but random).



What normal man could not blame Putin for death and suffering in Ukraine , after all he knows well what he is doing ? No doubt there are causes of his wickedness. Putin has relinquished responsibility for the death and suffering he has caused, so we must presume his reason is dominated by an unfree, irresponsible idea, such as that he must at all costs be the new Tzar of a larger Russia.
Belinda
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:20 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:16 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:35 am
You'll have to explain what you mean, there. "Change," by definition, is usually understood to be a movement from one state of being into another. I don't know of anybody who thinks "change" is itself a state of being.
One state of being to another is not only temporal it's also spatial.
Is that your attempt to explain? I can't quite tell.
This world is an active and changeable world. When Immanuel changes place from a swimming pool to a lecture room Immanuel is relatively different as to both time and place. He changed from place to place and he changed from past to future. An observer seeing Immanuel at each time and place may say " Hey! Immanuel is standing on a platform in a jacket and trousers, Immanuel has changed from swimming and wearing a wet bathing suit."

Being is defined by how you exist. Immanuel no longer exists as a baby, or at the moment he is reading this post as a sleeper in a bed.
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