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Re: You're kidding, right?
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:11 am
by Dubious
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:16 am
Unanimous consent? If that is what freedom means to you, you have lost your fucking mind.
No, that's not *freedom: it is, however, the only form of democracy worth a good goddamn.
*not that
it matters to you
Unanimous consent is impossible in any democracy. No vote on anything voted upon ever yielded unanimous consent, except in minuscule groups who have their own agenda. Votes determine what the majority concludes. Those not in favour have to live with it and accept it as democracy for good or ill as understood in its origins by the ancient Athenians whose population was far less than most modern small cities!
If democracy depended on unanimity instead of majority, it would be impossible for it to exist, since that would imply the requirement of a single affirmation for thousands or millions of individual votes. The only time democracy equals unanimity may be within businesses and corporations where concord without exceptions is mandated to endorse a plan of action.
Unanimity, whether in large or small groups, strives mostly toward totalitarianism by disenfranchising those not considered orthodox enough.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:04 pm
by Lacewing
Ah... so pointing out that you haven't followed through on what you recently and dramatically claimed you were going to do, is not appropriate somehow? Shall we all pretend along with you from moment to moment that your claims and distortions are as real and believable as you say? And then there's the dusty and archaic 20 volume set of...
Freedom and truth and morals according to Henry's way of thinking...
...although you do not demonstrate any of them.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 pm
by Belinda
mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:16 pmDemocracy -- the well-mannered domination of a minority by the majority -- is just mob rule in Sunday-Go-To-Meetin' clothes, and the mob is easily led, well-trained. With the obvious exception of Monkey Wrenches like Orange Man, the democratically chosen and assigned are exactly where they've paid to be (or where their masters have paid for them to be).
This is jaundiced nonsense, henry. There is next to no truth to any of it. Starting at the top: "Democracy -- the well-mannered domination of a minority by the majority" is not an accurate description of representative democracy as instituted in the US or most elsewhere. It is actually very hard to get a majority to agree to anything including domination of minorities. In most democracies, oppressed minorities sooner or later win their freedom.
Henry actually described the disadvantage of democracy. There actually are minorities that remain disadvantaged for far too long. What Henry fails to describe is a system of governance that is fair to minorities more so than democracy.
Henry's omission is probably due his ignorance of the power of the populist media owned by Rupert Murdoch and influencing popular opinion in US, Australia, and UK, and which is profoundly undemocratic.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 pm
by mickthinks
Democratic progress can be be painfully slow, true, but that is quite beside henry's point.
According to henry, democracy generates oppression of the minority that was being or would have been held in check by the previous system of governent. However, I cannot think of a single case in world history of that happening, so I think it fair to conclude that it isn't the norm and doesn't constitute a serious or significant disadvantage. On the contrary, it seems to me that the emergence in a democratic society of oppression of minorities is a harbinger of the impending collapse of its democracy.
Re: You're kidding, right?
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:00 pm
by henry quirk
No vote on anything voted upon ever yielded unanimous consent, except in minuscule groups who have their own agenda
Yep.
-----
What Henry fails to describe is a system of governance that is fair to minorities more so than democracy.
You're right. I offered no system of
governance.
-----
democracy generates oppression of the minority
Yep.
that was being or would have been held in check by the previous system of governent.
Oh, I don't know about all that. As I say: the A of C was better, but wasn't perfect, or even near-perfect. Mostly the A of C kept abuses local (and if your abuser is your neighbor it's much easier to...
).
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:01 pm
by Belinda
mick thinks wrote:
the emergence in a democratic society of oppression of minorities is a harbinger of the impending collapse of its democracy.
I agree. Democracy is quite fragile as it's always under stresses originating with powerful interests that are solely self seeking .Examples of these solely self- seeking interests are 1. Powerful churches that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of people they pretend to serve and who need to be protected.
2. Powerful police forces and militias that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of the minorities who need protecting.
3.Rich people who aim to conserve and increase their wealth to the detriment of labourers, refugees, and unemployable people.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
by henry quirk
Democracy is quite fragile as it's always under stresses originating with powerful interests that are solely self seeking. Examples of these solely self-seeking interests are...
1. Powerful churches that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of people they pretend to serve and who need to be protected.
2. Powerful police forces and militias that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of the minorities who need protecting.
3. Rich people who aim to conserve and increase their wealth to the detriment of labourers, refugees, and unemployable people.
4. The anarchistic (young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or any rule).
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:53 pm
by Immanuel Can
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
4. The anarchistic (
young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or
any rule).
They say they won't. But of course, they will.
They will not only abide mob rule, so long as they think it's "their" mob, but they also will employ any violent or destructive means to advance the mob's agenda. They're blithely optimistic that if they simply destroy the existing order, the ideal society will bloom out of the wreck automatically, like a rose out of a pile of manure. They'll destroy Democracy in the name of new freedom.
And then, as pertains to rules, they will impose a set that makes the Ten Commandments look like casual suggestions. They will have regulations for everything, and demands for everyone, and spies and snitches to make sure that anybody not sufficiently commmitted to "revolutionary principles," meaning the new, oppressive status quo, will be locked up, tortured or shot promptly.
No one is so authoritarian as a Lefty. They start out preaching freedom, but end up practicing the gulag, the re-education camp and the firing squad. It hasn't failed once.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:58 pm
by henry quirk
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
4. The anarchistic (
young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or
any rule).
They say they won't. But of course, they will.
They will not only abide mob rule, so long as they think it's "their" mob, but they also will employ any violent or destructive means to advance the mob's agenda. They're blithely optimistic that if they simply destroy the existing order, the ideal society will bloom out of the wreck automatically, like a rose out of a pile of manure. They'll destroy Democracy in the name of new freedom.
And then, as pertains to rules, they will impose a set that makes the Ten Commandments look like casual suggestions. They will have regulations for everything, and demands for everyone, and spies and snitches to make sure that anybody not sufficiently commmitted to "revolutionary principles," meaning the new, oppressive status quo, will be locked up, tortured or shot promptly.
No one is so authoritarian as a Lefty. They start out preaching freedom, but end up practicing the gulag, the re-education camp and the firing squad. It hasn't failed once.
er, I didn't say
*anarchists. I said
anarchistic. I was talkin' about folks like
me.
Mebbe I shoulda said the
unruly...
*the lefties done ruined another good word...not too long ago, anarchist and anarchism meant sumthin' much different than anarcho-commie
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:00 pm
by Belinda
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
Democracy is quite fragile as it's always under stresses originating with powerful interests that are solely self seeking. Examples of these solely self-seeking interests are...
1. Powerful churches that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of people they pretend to serve and who need to be protected.
2. Powerful police forces and militias that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of the minorities who need protecting.
3. Rich people who aim to conserve and increase their wealth to the detriment of labourers, refugees, and unemployable people.
4. The anarchistic (
young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or
any rule).
When you say "mob rule" Do you include rule by religious codes of conduct?
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:03 pm
by Immanuel Can
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:58 pm
er, I didn't say
*anarchists. I said
anarchistic. I was talkin' about folks like
me.
*the lefties done ruined another good word...not too long ago, anarchist and anarchism meant sumthin' much different than anarcho-commie
Oh, right you are.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:04 pm
by henry quirk
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:00 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
Democracy is quite fragile as it's always under stresses originating with powerful interests that are solely self seeking. Examples of these solely self-seeking interests are...
1. Powerful churches that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of people they pretend to serve and who need to be protected.
2. Powerful police forces and militias that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of the minorities who need protecting.
3. Rich people who aim to conserve and increase their wealth to the detriment of labourers, refugees, and unemployable people.
4. The anarchistic (
young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or
any rule).
When you say "mob rule" Do you include rule by religious codes of conduct?
Any mob -- political, philosophical, economic, religious -- that presumes to rule cuz they're the majority ain't no friend of mine.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:00 pm
by Belinda
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:04 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:00 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:41 pm
Democracy is quite fragile as it's always under stresses originating with powerful interests that are solely self seeking. Examples of these solely self-seeking interests are...
1. Powerful churches that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of people they pretend to serve and who need to be protected.
2. Powerful police forces and militias that aim for institutional survival to the detriment of the minorities who need protecting.
3. Rich people who aim to conserve and increase their wealth to the detriment of labourers, refugees, and unemployable people.
4. The anarchistic (
young at heart) who won't abide mob rule (or
any rule).
When you say "mob rule" Do you include rule by religious codes of conduct?
Any mob -- political, philosophical, economic, religious -- that presumes to rule cuz they're the majority ain't no friend of mine.
The majority who get to say what is to be the rule are usually mightily influenced by clever men who know how to manage crowds. If you want to preserve your rightful freedoms you need and I mean
need
to have a well informed and well judged look at their motives. You are too Romantic and don't understand how clever bad men are.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:34 pm
by henry quirk
You are too Romantic and don't understand how clever bad men are.
Oh my, I do love bein' analyzed: please, tell me how you concluded I'm too Romantic.
Re: The Left Destroys EVERYTHING It Touches
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:41 pm
by Belinda
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:34 pm
You are too Romantic and don't understand how clever bad men are.
Oh my, I do love bein' analyzed: please, tell me how you concluded I'm too
Romantic.
Romanticism is mostly defined by more or less extreme glorification of individualism. Anarchy is extreme political individualism. There are a few American myths that tell of individualism, many of them are (or were) Hollywood staple themes.
).