Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:50 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:51 am I dislike Islam for the reason you state, Veritas Aequitas. I was reared in the Church of Scotland and I learned much morality there. However I dislike the Church of Scotland because it got a young outspoken student hung for blasphemy. Blasphemy was a recognised crime in Xian 17th century Scotland. The Kirk has learned better. Let's hope Islam will do so too.

https://www.humanism.scot/what-we-do/hu ... sh-martyr/

But there is a critical difference here.

There are Churches and Christians who killed other Christians for blasphemy and other reasons then, but the killings were not doctrinally linked to any direct command of the God of the Gospels.

Joke of the Week!!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:53 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:50 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:51 am I dislike Islam for the reason you state, Veritas Aequitas. I was reared in the Church of Scotland and I learned much morality there. However I dislike the Church of Scotland because it got a young outspoken student hung for blasphemy. Blasphemy was a recognised crime in Xian 17th century Scotland. The Kirk has learned better. Let's hope Islam will do so too.

https://www.humanism.scot/what-we-do/hu ... sh-martyr/

But there is a critical difference here.

There are Churches and Christians who killed other Christians for blasphemy and other reasons then, but the killings were not doctrinally linked to any direct command of the God of the Gospels.

Joke of the Week!!

Who would bother with the above?
In a philosophical forum, you are disgracing yourself with merely one-liners without justifications.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:28 am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

These were criminals who beheaded the teacher in France. The law in France is not Sharia law.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/indonesi ... 9bf04873d1
The Huffington Post article explains how connection between social classes, with Muslims representing the poorest class, inflames both populism and nationalism among Muslims who naturally resent their lack of social mobility. In Indonesia the nationalist sentiments of poor Muslims is against China.

The article shows how resentment , especially when religious beliefs legitimate the resentment, can result in violence.

You are not seeing the wider picture.

All humans poor or rich will 'resent' depending on the context.
The poor will resent the rich and it is the government's duty to resolve such resentments.

But if religious beliefs are the additional variables and catalysts in triggering the resentment into violence as in the case of Islam, then the logical solution is to get rid of that catalyst [i.e. Islam].
Thereafter the government will have one less variable to deal with to resolve the resentments between the classes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bl ... 31896.html
This article is about what the Koran actually says about blasphemy. Here is a short except from it:

Thus, the Quran commands Muslims to judge with justice, not religion. Likewise, the Quran could have added that the faithful should only obey those in authority who are Muslim – but that notable omission speaks volumes otherwise.

The Quran contains 114 chapters and 6236 verses.
What is mentioned above [by apologists] in reference to the Quran 'to judge with justice' is insignificant to being a Muslim looking for salvation to eternal life.

As I had stated many times,
a Muslim is one who had entered into a contract [covenant] with Allah to comply with all the terms within that contract as stipulated in the Quran in exchange for a promise of eternal life in paradise.

The most critical and foundational term a contracted Muslims must comply is to protect the religion of Islam that promise him salvation to eternal life.
Quran 5:33 compelled all Muslim to kill those [non-Muslims] who are a threat [even the slightest] to the religion of Islam.
Blasphemy is a serious threat to the religion of Islam, therefore per 5:33 those who commit blasphemy against Islam must be killed in accordance to the command of Allah.
This is why those who draw cartoons of Muhammad [blasphemy as a threat] are killed by some very zealous & dutiful Muslims who will be highly rewarded in paradise.

The point is the command in 5:33 to kill non-Muslims is literal and explicit and no humans [other than Allah] can interpret it otherwise.
This is why the 'good' genuine Muslims will kill non-Muslims dutifully and will be rewarded by Allah.
To the genuine good Muslims [1] they have to kill non-Muslims upon threats to Islam, if not
[2 ]they will be punished in Hell and [3] if they kill non-Muslims they are highly rewarded in paradise as promised.
Thus it is expected many Muslims will dutifully opt for 1 and 3.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:

All humans poor or rich will 'resent' depending on the context.
The poor will resent the rich and it is the government's duty to resolve such resentments.

But poor people don't resent rich people; no poor person resents a rich man who won his money from a fair lottery such as the football pools. What poor people resent is gross unfairness. The evidence for my rebuttal is there have always and everywhere been richer and poorer people. When unfair distribution, or exploitation of poor by rich, reaches a certain magnitude then the poor people rebel.

Normality happens when people are peaceful and living contentedly together without agitation.Those criminals who murder in the name of their religious belief are fanatics who don't represent normality.This fact holds true whether or not holy scriptures legitimate killing.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:28 am Veritas Aequitas wrote:

All humans poor or rich will 'resent' depending on the context.
The poor will resent the rich and it is the government's duty to resolve such resentments.

But poor people don't resent rich people; no poor person resents a rich man who won his money from a fair lottery such as the football pools. What poor people resent is gross unfairness. The evidence for my rebuttal is there have always and everywhere been richer and poorer people. When unfair distribution, or exploitation of poor by rich, reaches a certain magnitude then the poor people rebel.

Normality happens when people are peaceful and living contentedly together without agitation. Those criminals who murder in the name of their religious belief are fanatics who don't represent normality. This fact holds true whether or not holy scriptures legitimate killing.

You still miss the bigger picture.
In addition, note the OP and this section is about religion.

Normality and reality is, there are a majority of good and a minority of evil prone people within humanity and any group of people.
The evil prones will be triggered by variables and catalysts to commit evil acts.
Thus the solution is to identify the variable and catalysts to resolve and prevent evil acts.

The OP and this section is about religion, so we need to stick to topic.
Islam is the only religious ideology that triggers evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts in the name of Islam as commanded by Allah. Logically and rationally [at least theoretically for now] the solution is to get rid of Islam so that the evil prone will not have any religious basis to commit evil acts.

Evidently there are other secular variables and catalysts [social, psychological, etc.] that triggered various evil prones to commit evil acts, and all of them must be addressed.

But this thread is about religion and violence, so the focus is what we need to do with the ideology of Islam that triggered and compelled SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:47 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:28 am Veritas Aequitas wrote:

All humans poor or rich will 'resent' depending on the context.
The poor will resent the rich and it is the government's duty to resolve such resentments.

But poor people don't resent rich people; no poor person resents a rich man who won his money from a fair lottery such as the football pools. What poor people resent is gross unfairness. The evidence for my rebuttal is there have always and everywhere been richer and poorer people. When unfair distribution, or exploitation of poor by rich, reaches a certain magnitude then the poor people rebel.

Normality happens when people are peaceful and living contentedly together without agitation. Those criminals who murder in the name of their religious belief are fanatics who don't represent normality. This fact holds true whether or not holy scriptures legitimate killing.

You still miss the bigger picture.
In addition, note the OP and this section is about religion.

Normality and reality is, there are a majority of good and a minority of evil prone people within humanity and any group of people.
The evil prones will be triggered by variables and catalysts to commit evil acts.
Thus the solution is to identify the variable and catalysts to resolve and prevent evil acts.

The OP and this section is about religion, so we need to stick to topic.
Islam is the only religious ideology that triggers evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts in the name of Islam as commanded by Allah. Logically and rationally [at least theoretically for now] the solution is to get rid of Islam so that the evil prone will not have any religious basis to commit evil acts.

Evidently there are other secular variables and catalysts [social, psychological, etc.] that triggered various evil prones to commit evil acts, and all of them must be addressed.

But this thread is about religion and violence, so the focus is what we need to do with the ideology of Islam that triggered and compelled SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.

You "stick to the topic" if you want to do so. I prefer to set religion within the larger area of the culture and society within which it occurs.

Kayla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:33 pm

kentdavidge wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:24 pm The followers of Islam seem to be the most violent among the three Abrahamic religions.

i will take the craziest Islamic fundamentalist over a Proud Boy any day.

The virtue-signalling hypocrisy and insanity of the Politically Correct at its finest. No doubt you 'support your troops' in their annihilation of millions of the 'non crazy, non fundamenalist' muslims....

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:42 pm

Kayla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:33 pm

kentdavidge wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:24 pm The followers of Islam seem to be the most violent among the three Abrahamic religions.

i will take the craziest Islamic fundamentalist over a Proud Boy any day.

The virtue-signalling hypocrisy and insanity of the Politically Correct at its finest. No doubt you 'support your troops' in their annihilation of millions of the 'non crazy, non fundamenalist' muslims....

Ya, she always was a muppet.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:16 pm The main purpose of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of Westerners who are the main instigators and pot-stirrers of trouble in the Middle East, being appalled by such things as the stark and barbaric brutality of Muslims retaliating by beheading their perceived enemies...

...while, at the same time, completely ignoring the even greater brutality of children’s bodies being torn into pieces by a “smart” bomb that has been delivered from the comfort and safety of the videogame-like control seat of a Western drone operator.

I mean, we have all been subjected to the ghastly horror of pictures and videos of beheadings. However, just imagine if we could have a clear and slow-motion video of a toddler’s entire body being ripped apart by our preferred methods of death and mayhem.

Would the perpetrators of that heinous act (us Westerners) be less evil than the beheaders?

Obviously, both situations are examples of human madness. However, me and Jesus are having a difficult time trying to figure out which one is worse.
_______

I just saw a CNN video today that presents a gruesome example of exactly what I was talking about in the above quote.

Check it out and then never wonder why the American empire is about to be destroyed (one way or another) by the necrotizing returns from the negative karma it is sowing across the world.

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:22 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:16 pm The main purpose of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of Westerners who are the main instigators and pot-stirrers of trouble in the Middle East, being appalled by such things as the stark and barbaric brutality of Muslims retaliating by beheading their perceived enemies...

...while, at the same time, completely ignoring the even greater brutality of children’s bodies being torn into pieces by a “smart” bomb that has been delivered from the comfort and safety of the videogame-like control seat of a Western drone operator.

I mean, we have all been subjected to the ghastly horror of pictures and videos of beheadings. However, just imagine if we could have a clear and slow-motion video of a toddler’s entire body being ripped apart by our preferred methods of death and mayhem.

Would the perpetrators of that heinous act (us Westerners) be less evil than the beheaders?

Obviously, both situations are examples of human madness. However, me and Jesus are having a difficult time trying to figure out which one is worse.
_______

I just saw a CNN video today that presents a gruesome example of exactly what I was talking about in the above quote.

Check it out and then never wonder why the American empire is about to be destroyed (one way or another) by the necrotizing returns from the negative karma it is sowing across the world.

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU
_______

Well said, Seeds!

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:22 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:16 pm The main purpose of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of Westerners who are the main instigators and pot-stirrers of trouble in the Middle East, being appalled by such things as the stark and barbaric brutality of Muslims retaliating by beheading their perceived enemies...

...while, at the same time, completely ignoring the even greater brutality of children’s bodies being torn into pieces by a “smart” bomb that has been delivered from the comfort and safety of the videogame-like control seat of a Western drone operator.

I mean, we have all been subjected to the ghastly horror of pictures and videos of beheadings. However, just imagine if we could have a clear and slow-motion video of a toddler’s entire body being ripped apart by our preferred methods of death and mayhem.

Would the perpetrators of that heinous act (us Westerners) be less evil than the beheaders?

Obviously, both situations are examples of human madness. However, me and Jesus are having a difficult time trying to figure out which one is worse.
_______

I just saw a CNN video today that presents a gruesome example of exactly what I was talking about in the above quote.

Check it out and then never wonder why the American empire is about to be destroyed (one way or another) by the necrotizing returns from the negative karma it is sowing across the world.

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU
_______

You are insulting your own intelligence, objectivity and rationality by being bias and not seeing the full picture ideologically, historically and that of human nature.

Note the Normal Distribution re large groups >3000 years ago and the > 8 billion people at present.

Re evolution, human nature up to the present, whoever is the dominant and more powerful will naturally suppress the weaker ones. This is so evident in the animal world and thus humans.
So the 'karma' that is backlashing "Western" powers at present has been happening all over the world in the Eastern and Middle-Eastern civilization in the pasts.
This will keep going until the majority of humans naturally evolved to be compassionate to each other.

But the difference with Muslims being violent is totally different from the above natural evolutionary forces, where changes is possible.

What drives SOME small % but significant number of evil prone Muslims [note 10% = 150 million] to commit terrible evil and violent acts is based on immutable commands from a God as contractually imposed upon a Muslim by divine law.
There are specific divine commands from their God that they ought to kill and be violent to non-Muslims upon very vague conditions or threats where even being a non-believer itself is deemed to be a threat.
(btw, 1 of the 3 subjects I claimed to be a reasonable expert is Islam).

Since the divine commands are immutable, no change is possible as long as one is a Muslim and as long as there are Muslims [1.5 billion & increasing at a fast rate], there will be terrible evil and violent acts committed contractually as obligated to a God in exchange for eternal life and "virgins".

So the critical factor [80%] why Muslims [SOME] are so violent is due to the Islamic Ideology written in "stone tablet" and other [seemingly obvious] factors invoked are actually secondary.

You are insulting your own intelligence, objectivity and rationality with your confirmation bias.

kentdavidge wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:24 pm The followers of Islam seem to be the most violent among the three Abrahamic religions.
What you think?

I think you've gor off on the wrong footing here. Since it's inception Israel has been more violent that any Muslim country, and has initiated several wars, and occupations. Internally it is responsible for more religious based violence against those living within its borders than any country on earth.
So you might start by asking why are Jews so violent.
Depending on how you sunder the human populations, per capita the USA hs proven the most violent country since 1945, starting more wars and disrupting the political status quo of more countries than any other.
Individually the deaths at the Twin Towers on 9/11 and other highly visible and media genic instances seem to be huge, but the 3000 people that died on that day, and all the combined deaths from Muslim terrorism since that time is TINY compared to the violence meted out of combatants and civilians by the US and her allies.
Look at the war started by Bush ostensibly just to catch one man Bin Laden.

About 241,000 people have been killed in the Afghanistan and Pakistan war zone since 2001. More than 71,000 of those killed have been civilians. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/cos ... ans/afghan

Now take a look at Iraq, Libya, Syria, and the resultant contagion of violence and the radicalisation of thousands of young Musims who feel under threat from the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... e_Iraq_War

My answer to you is that the reason Islam SEEMS more violent is because the media you have been exposed to has portrayed Isalm that way.
But of the 1.8 billion Muslims, the terrorism that they report is a minority factor.

Now try to put yourself in the shoes of a young devout Muslim and read the casualty figures from US interference from the Coup in Iran in 1953, to the funding of Israel, to funding Saddam against Iran, for invading Iraq twice, and for all the other instances of US interference in the Islamic world and ask yourself if you might feel under attack and that 9/11 was nothing more than a small gesture in retaliation.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:59 pm ...Now try to put yourself in the shoes of a young devout Muslim and read the casualty figures from US interference from the Coup in Iran in 1953, to the funding of Israel, to funding Saddam against Iran, for invading Iraq twice, and for all the other instances of US interference in the Islamic world and ask yourself if you might feel under attack and that 9/11 was nothing more than a small gesture in retaliation.

Precisely!

And don't forget to add to that list what I mentioned in yet another of my earlier posts in this thread..

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:15 pm Again, I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the West looking down its nose and condemning Islamic methods of violence while ignoring its own methods of violence which can be far more brutal and, in some cases, on a much larger scale.

As an example of the callous and cavalier attitude that the West holds towards Muslims: when asked in a television interview about the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children that resulted from U.S. sanctions placed on that country in the 90s, the soon to be Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright said:

“...we think the price is worth it...”

https://youtu.be/FbIX1CP9qr4

Now just turn that around and imagine the shoe being on the other foot where some powerful foreign government states that we think that our actions which contributed to the deaths of 500,000 Canadian children, or 500,000 British children, or 500,000 American children was “...worth it....”

Don’t you suppose that those would be some unforgivable fightin’ words that might just lead to some retaliatory consequences?

Just try to wrap your mind around the degree of moral depravity implicit in that Albright quote, yet there it is in seven little words.

(Btw, prepare yourself for the inevitable onslaught of Veritas Aequitas' Islamophobic rants.)
-------
(I apologize for resurrecting this old thread, but that horrifying CNN video covering the recent U.S. drone strike that blew those little Afghan children into tiny pieces, really got to me. Again, here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU.)
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:17 pm (Btw, prepare yourself for the inevitable onslaught of Veritas Aequitas' Islamophobic rants.)
-------
(I apologize for resurrecting this old thread, but that horrifying CNN video covering the recent U.S. drone strike that blew those little Afghan children into tiny pieces, really got to me. Again, here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU.)
_______

The US is responsible for more deaths and violence perperated against Laos than all of Islam against the West.
Laos is a poor country that the US did not even bother to declare war against, yet dropped more ordinance on Laos during the Vietnam war than was dropped ON EUROPE IN WW2. (2 million tonnes).
This seems a staggering statistic but it is a fact and men women and children are still getting maimed by UXO to this day.
Despite this horroe story the US response in terms of compensation has been laughable.

http://legaciesofwar.org/about-laos/lef ... ances-uxo/

An estimated 80 million bombs remain buried in the soil, and fewer than 1 million have been removed.

This is America's gift to Laos that keeps on giving, killing or maiming 20000- 50000 people since the end of hostilities.
https://www.hi-us.org/laos_saving_lives ... _education

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:32 am

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:22 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:16 pm The main purpose of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of Westerners who are the main instigators and pot-stirrers of trouble in the Middle East, being appalled by such things as the stark and barbaric brutality of Muslims retaliating by beheading their perceived enemies...

...while, at the same time, completely ignoring the even greater brutality of children’s bodies being torn into pieces by a “smart” bomb that has been delivered from the comfort and safety of the videogame-like control seat of a Western drone operator.

I mean, we have all been subjected to the ghastly horror of pictures and videos of beheadings. However, just imagine if we could have a clear and slow-motion video of a toddler’s entire body being ripped apart by our preferred methods of death and mayhem.

Would the perpetrators of that heinous act (us Westerners) be less evil than the beheaders?

Obviously, both situations are examples of human madness. However, me and Jesus are having a difficult time trying to figure out which one is worse.
_______

I just saw a CNN video today that presents a gruesome example of exactly what I was talking about in the above quote.

Check it out and then never wonder why the American empire is about to be destroyed (one way or another) by the necrotizing returns from the negative karma it is sowing across the world.

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/7dRi-8Ph7oU
_______

You are insulting your own intelligence, objectivity and rationality by being bias and not seeing the full picture ideologically, historically and that of human nature.
...
You are insulting your own intelligence, objectivity and rationality with your confirmation bias.

Pot calling kettle black.
You seem to be in complete denial here.
The US is very good at killing children, having killed 70000 civilians during the Afghan conflict - how many of them do you think were children? More children were killed by American drones than adults died in 9/11
America is the violent one here.
Violence delivered with cold efficiency for 70 years against Islam - how do you think Muslims are likely to respond?
Use your fucking imagination.
IN the face of American horror, 9/11 was a small gesture.