Philosophy Now Forum

accelafine wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:50 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:47 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:46 pm

There was a 'ceasefire' on October 6. What did Hamas do on October 7? Do you remember?

I am talking about a cease-fire that leads to negotiation of ending the war.

You seem to be out of your depth. Perhaps attend English lessons for a few years. That might help.

Did you understand what I said?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm
Not this one, for sure. This is all on Hamas.


Well, not once Hamas has declared to kill Israelis to the very last man. There's no way to negotiate with that attitude. But that, too, is on Hamas.

Hamas already asked for a cease-fire. That is Israel who won't accept it.

I don't blame them. Given what Hamas has said it will do, I wouldn't believe them either.

What Hamas has said?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm P.S. -- Did you think that in war, there would be no bombs?

No, the problem is the use of dumb bombs that it is very unlikely to target Hamas but civilians.

"Dumb" bombs describes every bomb.

Not according to experts.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm The term "smart bomb" is a myth.

That is not true.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm There are only bombs that work more precisely, and those that are less well-equipped. Bombs are things that explode. Explosions kill people. They also create collateral damage. One can talk about "surgical strikes," but there are no "strikes" that do not have side-effects. If you collapse a building, people die. There's no getting around that.

Which is exactly what Hamas also knew, and placed their bombs and terrorists under and in hospitals, schools and mosques. They wanted collateral damage, and lots of it. Now they have it. And when Hamas is gone, so is any reason for the war. So let's all advocate for the quickest route to get rid of Hamas.

Do you mean that Israelis do what Hamas wants, namely kill innocents with dumb bombs?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:28 pm Well, that's clearly not true. But even if it were true, it would miss the point entirely.

Yes, it very much is true. Historically true. True beyond any doubt. Except of course if you define Israelis as Sons of Light battling Sons of Darkness and if you actually believe that Israel was god-given to Jews. If you see things through that lens, the lens itself will obscure the real facts. You see exclusively through that lens, and you see therefore what you want to see.

Nobody's saying that it's okay to bomb people. And nobody's trading off one tragedy against another. If that's what we were doing, I'd charge you with justifying Hamas's rape, murder and torture of innocent civilians. But that would be lame, and I won't do it.

You already know that I do not look at the struggle in any way except that I understand a people's right to resist. They committed warcrimes. We know that. And Israel has committed many. It does nothing to change the core dynamic.

The problem originated with the establishment of the state in 1948. Could it have been done differently? Yes. It wasn't however.

Additionally, you have to be made aware of the core beliefs of the Orthodox Jews (Judaism's constant ideological backgrounding). For example that it is a mitzvah to annihilate Jewry's enemies. When you understand the driving viewpoint that motivates Israel, and when you oppose it (as I do), how one sees Israel changes.

But what can we say about Hamas? If it's bad to kill somebody else's civilians, it's even worse to know that you're forcing somebody to bomb your own people...which is exactly what Hamas not only began to do, but continues to do every day, and has announced they will never stop doing until they, themselves, have been stopped.

And that, too, is something I understand.

I would have to visit Gaza and associate with militant people before I came out in stark judgment or condemnation of them. You condemn them a priori.

Be pragmatic: if you want no more deaths (and what else should we want?) the only way to stop this situation is to stop the people who are keeping it going. And that's Hamas.

You have said as much numerous times. But your perspective is both unrealistic and immaturely naive.

I agree that Israel is compelled to act, I cannot see a way around it, but none of it will work to Israel's advantage in the long run. And then things may occur, of which we are unaware now, that further complicate things.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 pm
Hamas already asked for a cease-fire. That is Israel who won't accept it.

I don't blame them. Given what Hamas has said it will do, I wouldn't believe them either.

What Hamas has said?

Yes. Hamas has publicly boasted that they will fight to the last person, and that they will never accept any existence of any Israel at all. You know that, I'm sure; they haven't been shy about saying it, and their actions certainly demonstrate that attitude is something they're committed to.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm

No, the problem is the use of dumb bombs that it is very unlikely to target Hamas but civilians.

"Dumb" bombs describes every bomb.

Not according to experts.

Use your brain. Bombs explode. When they do, people get hurt. If you think that doesn't happen, try putting a bomb in your own garage, and see what happens to your house. You won't care how "smart" the bomb was.

Do you mean that Israelis do what Hamas wants, namely kill innocents with dumb bombs?

Worse. Hamas deliberately uses their own people as human shields. They WANT civilians killed. It's the second best outcome, from their perspective; the first being that Israelis die. But it's a great consolation prize, they figure, is Israel ends up killing a whole bunch of innocents (or in many cases, people who are only dressed in civilian clothes but aren't civilians, though they can claim them to be). That plays well for Hamas with the world press. So Hamas has no desire to stop. They're getting what they want.

The only thing they don't want is to be gone, themselves. But that's what it's going to take.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:59 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:50 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:47 pm
I am talking about a cease-fire that leads to negotiation of ending the war.

You seem to be out of your depth. Perhaps attend English lessons for a few years. That might help.

Did you understand what I said?

No

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:12 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm
I don't blame them. Given what Hamas has said it will do, I wouldn't believe them either.

What Hamas has said?

Yes. Hamas has publicly boasted that they will fight to the last person, and that they will never accept any existence of any Israel at all. You know that, I'm sure; they haven't been shy about saying it, and their actions certainly demonstrate that attitude is something they're committed to.

Strange. I read in the news that Hamas asked for a ceasefire. Unfortunately, I cannot find the source.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm
"Dumb" bombs describes every bomb.

Not according to experts.

Use your brain. Bombs explode. When they do, people get hurt. If you think that doesn't happen, try putting a bomb in your own garage, and see what happens to your house. You won't care how "smart" the bomb was.

Dumb bombs mainly kill civilians.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm

Do you mean that Israelis do what Hamas wants, namely kill innocents with dumb bombs?

Worse. Hamas deliberately uses their own people as human shields. They WANT civilians killed. It's the second best outcome, from their perspective; the first being that Israelis die. But it's a great consolation prize, they figure, is Israel ends up killing a whole bunch of innocents (or in many cases, people who are only dressed in civilian clothes but aren't civilians, though they can claim them to be). That plays well for Hamas with the world press. So Hamas has no desire to stop. They're getting what they want.

The only thing they don't want is to be gone, themselves. But that's what it's going to take.

You don't make any sense.

accelafine wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:15 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:59 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:50 pm

You seem to be out of your depth. Perhaps attend English lessons for a few years. That might help.

Did you understand what I said?

No

I am talking about a cease-fire that leads to negotiation for ending the war.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:28 am Dumb bombs mainly kill civilians.

All bombs "kill" whatever they hit. There's no such thing as a "dumb" or "smart" bomb. They're only as dumb or smart as the person behind the controls.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm

Do you mean that Israelis do what Hamas wants, namely kill innocents with dumb bombs?

Worse. Hamas deliberately uses their own people as human shields. They WANT civilians killed. It's the second best outcome, from their perspective; the first being that Israelis die. But it's a great consolation prize, they figure, is Israel ends up killing a whole bunch of innocents (or in many cases, people who are only dressed in civilian clothes but aren't civilians, though they can claim them to be). That plays well for Hamas with the world press. So Hamas has no desire to stop. They're getting what they want.

The only thing they don't want is to be gone, themselves. But that's what it's going to take.

You don't make any sense.

It's Hamas that's not making any sense.

What kind of psychopaths are so determined to liquidate their enemies that they push their own people into the meat-grinder of war, and will not allow the machine to stop? What kinds of people behead babies and push their own children into hideous acts against civilians, build terrorist tunnels under hospitals, prevent civilians from fleeing, use aid supplies to create bombs, deprive their own citizens of food and water, and refuse to quit hating, even when they're on the brink of utter destruction themselves? Who are these people?

Have they no consciences left? Are they insane? These are very good questions.

Why calls for "moderation" by the IDF are problematic, in a nutshell:

https://www.tiktok.com/@nickjfreitas3.0 ... 9252048170

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:43 am Why calls for "moderation" by the IDF are problematic, in a nutshell:

https://www.tiktok.com/@nickjfreitas3.0 ... 9252048170

F*ing tiktok?

R U serious? ..only an imbecile would sacrifice their personal details\devices to a Chinese app.

MORON.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:28 am Dumb bombs mainly kill civilians.

All bombs "kill" whatever they hit. There's no such thing as a "dumb" or "smart" bomb. They're only as dumb or smart as the person behind the controls.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:57 pm
Worse. Hamas deliberately uses their own people as human shields. They WANT civilians killed. It's the second best outcome, from their perspective; the first being that Israelis die. But it's a great consolation prize, they figure, is Israel ends up killing a whole bunch of innocents (or in many cases, people who are only dressed in civilian clothes but aren't civilians, though they can claim them to be). That plays well for Hamas with the world press. So Hamas has no desire to stop. They're getting what they want.

The only thing they don't want is to be gone, themselves. But that's what it's going to take.

You don't make any sense.

It's Hamas that's not making any sense.

What kind of psychopaths are so determined to liquidate their enemies that they push their own people into the meat-grinder of war, and will not allow the machine to stop? What kinds of people behead babies and push their own children into hideous acts against civilians, build terrorist tunnels under hospitals, prevent civilians from fleeing, use aid supplies to create bombs, deprive their own citizens of food and water, and refuse to quit hating, even when they're on the brink of utter destruction themselves? Who are these people?

Have they no consciences left? Are they insane? These are very good questions.

Hamas agreed with the ceasefire and release of hostages: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778922

It's quite a puzzle to imagine what is on Netanyahu's mind. DOes he have an exist strategy, or any kind of plan.
Every country in the world bar the US is against him now.
With 20,000 Palestian civilians dead, including 5000 children, what does he think this has achieved?
In addition he has continued to target UN workers and journalists.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:13 pm It's Hamas that's not making any sense.

What kind of psychopaths are so determined to liquidate their enemies that they push their own people into the meat-grinder of war, and will not allow the machine to stop? What kinds of people behead babies and push their own children into hideous acts against civilians, build terrorist tunnels under hospitals, prevent civilians from fleeing, use aid supplies to create bombs, deprive their own citizens of food and water, and refuse to quit hating, even when they're on the brink of utter destruction themselves? Who are these people?

Have they no consciences left? Are they insane? These are very good questions.

First, the real question should and must be: What are the good questions? It is best to start with a clean slate. Different question can be deduced from the following statements:

The US's association with Israel, when one steps back and examines it, has not been *good* in any sense that I can discern. We must note however that within the Evangelical community there is the assertion that *support of Israel* wins the individual and the nation *the blessings of God*. To get a sense of this maniacal view consider Nikki Haley's comments: "It's not Israel that needs America, America needs Israel". This is a clear example of the madness and lunacy of a fanatic religious perspective that takes over one's perceptual system. So a good question might be How does this make any sense?

If we are to think about *psychopaths* I suggest that we turn our gaze directly to the Israeli state, and then to the support given that state. It has created a situation that now endangers everyone -- in the region obviously but also on a world-scale. Israel, therefore when seen though this lens, is not a blessing to anyone and certainly not to the United States. Israel has gained this support through devious and manipulative means. All of its actions, all of its political machinations, have a Machiavellian note in them. If Israel, or its lobby determine that you do not *support* Israel they put your name on a list and they go after you. They engage in the dirtiest of dirty politics is a safe and fair statement to make.

How is it that Israel, this minuscule nation, is said to have and seems to have so much influence over such a large nation as the United States? How did this come about? Is this *good* that a foreign nation has that level of influence? If it does have such influence, what has been its influence in determining the last 30 years of wars that the US has -- to its detriment if I understand correctly -- engaged in? How does one measure the destructive result of those wars, for example, against the *blessings* that are said to accrue to the US because of its *support*?

Are these good or bad questions? Should they be asked or should one block oneself from even thinking them?

Is not Israel a sort of war-machine that cannot stop itself? That has drawn its own people, and Diaspora Jewry that supports Israel reflexively, believing it to be an existential necessity when, it could be argued, what it has done (the way it came into being) ends up being destructive and non-beneficial to its own people; damaging to the standing of those in the Diaspora who support it; and a danger to the peace in the region?

But here one must ask: What have the political machinations of the US (and Israel if their influence is strong as some believe) actually done in the entire Middle East over the last 70+ years? Has any of this *helped* the Middle East? There is a whole slew of questions that spin off from this initial one.

What kinds of people have set all this up in the first place? How could the extraordinarily unequal violence and death inflicted on the Palestinians but then also throughout the region that result from (as some say) *fighting Israel's wars* in the Middle East? Were these wars actually fought largely for the benefit of Israel? Why do people say that if it is not actually true? Why have people in the US government said it if it is not true?

Why is it that Hamas -- admittedly a militant and violent entity -- is made the focus as if it is bringing all this about when a very good argument can be made that implicates both Israel and the US, its primary supporter, in allowing conditions to develop that are now bearing such dark fruits? Are those question also good ones, or are they bad ones?

Why is it that the Christian Evangelical perspective is so determining of immoral and unethical actions and results, but the Christian Evangelists are incapable of seeing this? True, my question was obviously a rhetorical one, since the answer is pretty obvious. What sort of *conscience* is the conscience of many Evangelical Christians and as well those who *support* Israel without deeper examination of the issues?

And (also obviously) it is in relation to this issue that other questions need be asked. What are those questions?

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:06 am Hamas agreed with the ceasefire

And the minute the ceasefire was attempted, began to shoot more rockets.

and release of hostages

Only some, only a few. And they killed, tortured and raped others. What's your plan for dealing with that?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:06 am Hamas agreed with the ceasefire

And the minute the ceasefire was attempted, began to shoot more rockets.

Do you have any justification that Hamas broke the ceasefire? As far as I recall, the last ceasefire was temporary.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm

and release of hostages

Only some, only a few. And they killed, tortured and raped others. What's your plan for dealing with that?

The violence is not a proper answer. By the way, aren't you a Cristian? Wasn't that Jesus who commanded you to love unconditionally, even your enemy?