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Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:33 am
by Belinda
promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:47 pm
I actually feel kinda let down because I had this fantasy that Russia would take Ukraine and make a pact with China, forming a new state capitalist fascism that would control everything east of Europe. The west would maintain its NATO alliance and function as a giant open, mixed economy capitalism. Like a new cold war 2.0 version.... where we have two capitalism contingencies battling over economic dominance. Each eventually implodes as marx prophesized, and the working classes are forced to rise up! Then they tear down the wall and reintegrate the whole world into a global proletarian dictatorship that absolves all national borders and places all productive assets and public utilities into the hands of a truly democratic governing body for the first time in history. The peoples.
And now that Putin is getting his ass kicked, I'm not sure any of this will ever happen. There's always next year, but really, what could Putin do next year that he can't do today?
The future looks bleak man. Right when there's the possibility of some real revolution - or at least the creation of circumstances that would very quickly demand one - the muhfucka who started the war wusses out a month later.
That about a false start.
I hope the working classes can evolve into a democratic global elite, without any need for revolutions and violence.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:59 pm
by iambiguous
From the NYT:
'Global Outrage Follows Allegations That Russia Executed Civilians
World Leaders Demand Action in Response to Civilian Deaths'
Outrage and fear.
They often come together in any number of contexts. Both personal and political.
We are incensed by what someone has done. We want something done about it. But do we dare to do something ourselves? What if the malefactor is able to inflict great harm on us if we try?
And here the malefactor has access to nuclear bombs.
Over and again outrage and fear can twist us into knots.
But in Ukraine the stakes could not possibly be higher.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:02 pm
by Belinda
iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:59 pm
From the NYT:
'Global Outrage Follows Allegations That Russia Executed Civilians
World Leaders Demand Action in Response to Civilian Deaths'
Outrage and fear.
They often come together in any number of contexts. Both personal and political.
We are incensed by what someone has done. We want something done about it. But do we dare to do something ourselves? What if the malefactor is able to inflict great harm on us if we try?
And here the malefactor has access to nuclear bombs.
Over and again outrage and fear can twist us into knots.
But in Ukraine the stakes could not possibly be higher.
Pyrrhic victory for Putin if he atom bombs Europe. He would find it very hard to govern desperate people.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:41 pm
by iambiguous
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... an-energy/
'Europe is united in its outrage over evidence of alleged Russian atrocities in Ukraine. But the European Union is not sure what it is willing to do about it, especially when it comes to energy.
'As photographs of bodies in the streets of the town of Bucha circulated online over the weekend, horrified Ukrainian and European officials called for the E.U. to finally stop buying Russian oil and gas.
'Every barrel of oil and ton of gas is “soaked in the blood” of those killed, the speaker of Ukraine’s parliament said. Lithuania’s foreign minister warned other E.U. countries not to become “accomplices.”
Again, just how tricky the real world can become. Someone like Vladimir Putin does something that enrages you. But: what are the actual existential -- consequential -- dots that connect you to him?
In other words, if you attempt to do something about what he has done in Ukraine, what is the actual impact on your life? If Russian oil and coal are no longer available to you, how for all practical purposes does that effect your day to day existence? It's easy enough to get angry at someone when you are wholly independent of them. But what if you need them for something?
It's like China and the Uyghurs. Why didn't the West sever all economic ties with China? Why not forbid any domestic corporations from doing business in China? Why not forbid the import of all products made in China?
Capitalism and morality. But that's a whole other issue.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:21 pm
by iambiguous
From the Washington Post...
'Speaking by video at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Tuesday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky demanded that Russian leaders and soldiers to be brought before a special tribunal to be tried “immediately” over the atrocities committed in Bucha.
'“They killed entire families, adults and children, and they tried to burn their bodies,” Zelensky said. “This undermines the whole architecture of global security. They are destroying everything.”
'Russia, which has denied killing civilians in Ukraine and claimed that the images out of Bucha are fake, criticized the expulsions and vowed to retaliate.'
So, who do you believe...Zelensky or Putin?
And, of course, unless one of us here was personally on hand to witness Russian soldiers commit these war crimes, we've got to fall back on what we read or hear in the media.
I'm very much inclined to believe Zelensky myself. But I can't absolutely rule out the possibility that, at least in part, Zelensky might have staged some scenes to rally world opinion around him.
In fact, so much of what goes on in the world around us we come to think about through what we hear and read from others. It's not like we were there to witness it ourselves. Do they have a political axe to grind? an ideology to sell? a Precious Self to sustain?
That's why it's so easy to plug conspiracy theories or fake news. Most of us are unable to absolutely disprove that 9/11 was a false flag operation.
We "just know" that it wasn't.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:41 pm
by promethean75
"But I can't absolutely rule out the possibility that, at least in part, Zelensky might have staged some scenes to rally world opinion around him."
I don't doubt it, but that's the smart thing to do, in fact. To try and rally more support from other countries by exaggerating or even faking the data.
I'd do it in a min. I mean when you're attacked by another country, your moral obligations not to lie are superseded by the the necessity of your country to survive... and you do whatcha gotta.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:18 pm
by henry quirk
To try and rally more support from other countries by exaggerating or even faking the data.
I'd do it in a min. I mean when you're attacked by another country, your moral obligations not to lie are superseded by the the necessity of your country to survive... and you do whatcha gotta.
A moral nihilist talkin' about moral obligations:
Lyin' to folks to enlist their aid? Dirty dealin' (if your circumstance is truiy dire you ought not have to lie about it, yeah?)
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:31 pm
by promethean75
"a moral nihilist talkin' about moral obligations"
I wuz gonna put a caveat; one isn't morally obligated to tell the truth anyway, much less when one's at war.
"Dirty dealin' (if your circumstance is truiy dire you ought not have to lie about it, yeah?)"
Ah, but one wouldn't depend on the other country deciding one needed help. What if the other country believes 'well that's not bad enough to warrant my defending you'?
So you make shit up that is more badder than what is really happening. You ain't got time to piddle around tryna convince people. You go straight for the most horriblest thing you can imagine that you think will gain others sympathy, and fast.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:37 pm
by promethean75
To drink it, or make a Molotov cocktail out of it. That, perhaps, is one of the most pressing questions the Ukrainian working class is now axing itself.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:53 pm
by henry quirk
What if the other country believes 'well that's not bad enough to warrant my defending you'?
Ought not that be their call?
You go straight for the most horriblest thing you can imagine that you think will gain others sympathy, and fast.
Yeah, that worked out well for the boy who cried wolf.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:54 pm
by iambiguous
promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:41 pm
"But I can't absolutely rule out the possibility that, at least in part, Zelensky might have staged some scenes to rally world opinion around him."
I don't doubt it, but that's the smart thing to do, in fact. To try and rally more support from other countries by exaggerating or even faking the data.
I'd do it in a min. I mean when you're attacked by another country, your moral obligations not to lie are superseded by the the necessity of your country to survive... and you do whatcha gotta.
Too risky.
Think of all the people that would be involved. If even one of them spills the beans and can indisputably document it as fake news, Putin would be given a propaganda goldmine.
On the other hand, Putin might film a fake sequence in which the "dead bodies" are resurrected and claim that they were just actors in a Zelensky plot.
Anyone can film a street scene with people pretending to be dead. What we need is an authentic video of Russian soldiers actually executing people. Has that come to light yet?
Still, as long as Putin has access to thousands of nuclear bombs there is only so far the West can go in holding him accountable for anything that he does.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:57 pm
by promethean75
"Ought not that be their call?"
And it still will be.... only they've decided after being presented with false information. Muwah-hah-hah-hah-hah!
"Yeah, that worked out well for the boy who cried wolf."
Inapplicable in praxis. Ukraine will never go to war three times with Russia and lose the last one because it lied to everyone the other two times it was at war, and nobody came to save them on the third go'round.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:57 pm
by henry quirk
the most pressing question the Ukrainian working class is now axing itself
The most pressin' question for any people, anywhere, ought to have been:how much longer are we gonna live with The State's boot on our necks?
The most pressin' question,
today, for any people, anywhere, ought be: when do we start hangin' these guys?
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:01 pm
by henry quirk
Ukraine will never go to war three times
C'mon, guy, you know what I mean: lie today to get aid, be found out tomorrow, the day after get only a cold shoulder when aid is really needed.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:04 pm
by promethean75
"Has that come to light yet?"
A relevant point. But we can't say Z is lying unless someone rats on em... and good luck finding a Ukrainian who doesn't stand with Z. Unless there's a Russian sympathizer double-agent who's infiltrated Z's set.
