Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:17 pm From my own experience, I do not believe that consciousness is tied to a body/vehicle.

Before there were people on earth, where were all the spirits/souls/consciousnesses? Were they all in a big waiting room somewhere yelling at the primordial ooze, "Hurry up and evolve into humans so we can come to earth and play World of Warcraft!" How many of these beings are there? Do new ones get created, or are there already as many as will ever exist, just waiting for enough humans to be born to accommodate them all? Do they shove each other out of the way or bribe the body-assigner to get an advantage in inhabiting the next available body? Do they get a choice of parents? "Ooh a software engineer married to a doctor in Palo Alto, sign me up to inhabit that fetus." Do they get pissed off when they get aborted? "Shit! Now I have to wait another millennium to be born!"

Have you ever given this any thought? I have. It's a heuristic argument against your idea. Its self-refuting in its absurdity once you work out the details.

wtf wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:30 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:17 pm From my own experience, I do not believe that consciousness is tied to a body/vehicle.

Before there were people on earth, where were all the spirits/souls/consciousnesses? Were they all in a big waiting room somewhere yelling at the primordial ooze, "Hurry up and evolve into humans so we can come to earth and play World of Warcraft!" How many of these beings are there? Do new ones get created, or are there already as many as will ever exist, just waiting for enough humans to be born to accommodate them all? Do they shove each other out of the way or bribe the body-assigner to get an advantage in inhabiting the next available body? Do they get a choice of parents? "Ooh a software engineer married to a doctor in Palo Alto, sign me up to inhabit that fetus." Do they get pissed off when they get aborted? "Shit! Now I have to wait another millennium to be born!"

Have you ever given this any thought? I have. It's a heuristic argument against your idea. Its self-refuting in its absurdity once you work out the details.

I was wondering when someone would comment on that statement. But you did it a little differently than I expected. Personally, I do not think there are any individuals other than in (and for) the world of forms. When the forms die, there would be no logical reason (that I can see) for some kind of individuality to continue. Rather... it's more like a pool of awareness that manifests into one form or another simply because it can... and it really doesn't matter what the manifestation is! Any physical form is just a shell. It's the only thing that dies away. That which doesn't require any particular form, likely doesn't have or need any particular agenda either.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:14 pm=
I was wondering when someone would comment on that statement. But you did it a little differently than I expected. Personally, I do not think there are any individuals other than in (and for) the world of forms. When the forms die, there would be no logical reason (that I can see) for some kind of individuality to continue. Rather... it's more like a pool of awareness that manifests into one form or another simply because it can... and it really doesn't matter what the manifestation is! Any physical form is just a shell. It's the only thing that dies away. That which doesn't require any particular form, likely doesn't have or need any particular agenda either.

Not a bad point at all. There's this universal consciousness, which automatically inhabits whatever physical bodies are born. If I may make an analogy, it's like asking if all the "wetness" was present somewhere before a rainstorm, and if new wetness needs to be produced for each new raindrop. But that's not how it works. Rather, the wetness automatically permeates all raindrops as part of their essence; just as the universal consciousness permeates each human as we show up.

Wouldn't that be a bit nihilistic? In this case no human life matters at all. The universal consciousness is all that matters, not any particular instance of it. If a fetus is aborted or is allowed to live a full life, what difference does it make to the universal consciousness?

Regardless, I think you actually answered my question. There aren't individual souls jostling around waiting to jump into the next fertilized egg. There's one great big universal soul that's an inherent part of each new life. In which case each new life is either sacred and precious, as a representative carrier of the universal soul; or else totally dispensable, easily replaced by some other life; depending on one's ethics.

wtf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:44 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:14 pm=
Personally, I do not think there are any individuals other than in (and for) the world of forms. When the forms die, there would be no logical reason (that I can see) for some kind of individuality to continue. Rather... it's more like a pool of awareness that manifests into one form or another simply because it can... and it really doesn't matter what the manifestation is! Any physical form is just a shell. It's the only thing that dies away. That which doesn't require any particular form, likely doesn't have or need any particular agenda either.

Not a bad point at all. There's this universal consciousness, which automatically inhabits whatever physical bodies are born.

That's what makes sense to me.

wtf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:44 am Wouldn't that be a bit nihilistic? In this case no human life matters at all. The universal consciousness is all that matters, not any particular instance of it.

I think it's challenging to talk about value... or 'the point' of anything... beyond what it means to us as humans. I don't think the Universe operates on our terms. Whatever value or point there may be is probably in a completely different language than what we think and speak. Just as there are so many languages and perceptions all throughout nature -- why would we think that OUR human language and perception is somehow uniquely representative of a god?

In this moment we create and imagine what matters to us. Countless people in previous civilizations have done so before. So, I think what matters to humans is designed by and for the moment in which any of us live -- and we can do that in many different ways.

There does not need to be any belief in permanent individuality in order to create and enjoy life in the moment. To participate in this wonderful display of creativity is its own reward... or whatever we make of it.

wtf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:44 am If a fetus is aborted or is allowed to live a full life, what difference does it make to the universal consciousness?

I don't know what universal consciousness gets out of it. Simply, how would a particular form be necessary for Universal consciousness to come through? Countless forms in nature come and go -- many of which don't make it to full development or 'longevity' for all kinds of reasons. That does not stop nature. As long as we think that we humans are an endless and expanding stream of individuals created by a god, we will make up rules and claims about that god and ourselves.

wtf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:44 am Regardless, I think you actually answered my question. There aren't individual souls jostling around waiting to jump into the next fertilized egg. There's one great big universal soul that's an inherent part of each new life. In which case each new life is either sacred and precious, as a representative carrier of the universal soul; or else totally dispensable, easily replaced by some other life; depending on one's ethics.

I don't think human judgments can encompass it. New life is both beautiful and natural, ebbing and flowing. Potential comes and goes. Whether or not it is embraced cannot be forced, and is not imperative. Surely the Universe doesn't need such forced human ideas superimposed onto its immense creative flow. Most who insist on protecting a little bean of life in someone else's body, are surely NOT embracing full-grown adults that they see as an opponent -- and are surely responsible for all sorts of destruction in nature as a result of their activities and habits -- so perhaps they should focus on responsibility for what their OWN minds/bodies are actually choosing not to embrace every day.