Philosophy Now Forum

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:40 pm Why is atheism so closed minded and yet believe itself open minded? Atheists here deny that I am not a theist. Why is this so? Rabbi Wolpe sheds some light on the subject.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-dav ... 33662.html

In the past when I have debated noted atheists — Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and others — the audience was heavily weighted toward my opponents. That makes sense. Each of these men — like Dawkins, Dennett and others — brings with them a large following. But why seek out a religious site solely to insult religion? I wondered: Why are atheists so angry?

Here are four reasons, none exclusive of the others:

1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done. No one can seriously deny that religion has been guilty of wickedness in this world and has provided cover for wickedness. I refer not only to abusers who hide under the cloak of clergy, but religious persecutions, the stifling of speech and dissent, the mistreatment of women — the crimes are legion. While as a believer I think there is much more to be said about this topic, it is certainly reasonable for people to be angry at religion for its abuses, particularly people who have themselves been victims.

2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought. No avalanche of counterexamples, from noted scientists who are believers to the way in which the scientific method has flourished in the monotheistic west (as opposed to say, the non-monotheistic eastern societies) will serve to dissuade. That which is understood to have happened to Galileo is all, apparently, one needs to know.

3. Here is where I make my bid for more obloquy to be visited on my head. There is an arrogant unwillingness to engage with religion’s serious thinkers. Too many atheists assume that a couple of insults will substitute for argument. They suffer from the incredulity of those who cannot believe anyone would disagree. It reminds me of the most self-assured of the faithful, who suffer the same intellectual imperialism. “I am right,” a statement we all identify with from time to time, becomes “therefore you are stupid for disagreeing.” A disagreeable sentiment, to say the least. And a narrow, thoughtless one, to boot.

4. Finally, I will go so far as to say that there is sometimes in the atheist a want of wonder. In a world in which so much is still not understood, in which multiple universes are possible, in which we have not pierced the mystery of consciousness, to discount the supernatural is to lack the openness to mystery that should be a human hallmark. There is so much we do not know. Religious people too should acknowledge this truth. Epistemological humility — the acknowledgment that we are at the very first baby steps of understanding — is far wiser than arrogance on either side. After all, we comprehend with our brains, and who knows how limited are our only organs of understanding?

These atheists are bigoted against religion in the same way that some are prejudiced against blacks. They create a collective based on imagination and separate incidents. Atheists are unaware that religion consists of many levels of quality and like any form of bigotry, is closed to qualitative discrimination. The belief that religion by definition reflects fantasy provides an air of superiority for the atheist and closes the mind to the experience of wonder as opposed to curiousity.

Ideas Einstein presents are really introductory baby steps to evolving towards a human conscious perspective. Even at this level they are repulsive and will be rejected by dominant secularism. I don't see how it can change. When blind belief is met with blind denial what can be expected other than the status quo and the continuance of dominant cave life?

Nick_A wrote:...

It really is sad. Secularized religion has done its part to further the course of spirit killing and the attitudes of modern secularism and atheism assure the atrophy of the human perspective to such a degree that even the idea of the cosmic man seems naive. ...

So the question for those not yet spiritually dead is to determine how best to serve the young and enable them to mature into a human rather than conditioned cave perspective. Not an easy task when we consider how much the world is against it even though the young secretly gravitate towards it.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:37 am Are you losing the plot!? As you are now quoting yourself.

Nick_A wrote:...

It really is sad. Secularized religion has done its part to further the course of spirit killing and the attitudes of modern secularism and atheism assure the atrophy of the human perspective to such a degree that even the idea of the cosmic man seems naive. ...

But you're the one who claims one cannot achieve such a condition and that it is a forlorn hope?

So the question for those not yet spiritually dead is to determine how best to serve the young and enable them to mature into a human rather than conditioned cave perspective. Not an easy task when we consider how much the world is against it even though the young secretly gravitate towards it.

Easy, follow what Einstein said and did and teach them the sciences.

I don't think you know what is meant by a human perspective.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:44 am Nick_A wrote:

I don't think you know what is meant by a human perspective.

How does a child learn a human perspective?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:41 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:44 am Nick_A wrote:

I don't think you know what is meant by a human perspective.

How does a child learn a human perspective?

Initially, Children don't have or hold to the idea there is a human perspective, neither do they develop any anthropocentric beliefs regarding human perspectives, these beliefs are artificially imposed upon them by their culture, parents, and school teachers ..that they then themselves take on as their own beliefs via that artificial programming.

.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:46 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:41 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:44 am Nick_A wrote:



How does a child learn a human perspective?

Initially, Children don't have or hold to the idea there is a human perspective, neither do they develop any anthropocentric beliefs regarding human perspectives, these beliefs are artificially imposed upon them by their culture, parents, and school teachers ..that they then themselves take on as their own beliefs via that artificial programming.

.

Yes Indeed. Nick has so far neglected to specify exactly how a child does learn a human perspective.

Nick_A wrote:I don't think you know what is meant by a human perspective. ...

Can a computer filled with facts have a human perspective? ...

Science is a very useful tool for human adaptation but does not affect a human perspective.

Einstein is referring to our potential for a universal perspective as opposed to our normal societal perspective. Just because a person has acquired a universal perspective doesn't mean they actualize it. ...

St. Paul called himself the wretched man because even though he had a higher human perspective he was still captive of his conditioned animal perspective. ...

The struggle between the two attractions and what resolves them is what offers help for our species. ...

Einstein just makes us aware of the human condition from the perspective of a scientist. ...

Those here prefer to condemn it. ...

It is that way in the world as a whole. ...

But Einstein makes us aware that there is no contradiction between science and the essence of religion. They compliment each other. The fact that there is so much opposition to the obvious is just proof of our stupidity.

How has he neglected anything to do with how children learn human perspectives,

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:19 am Dontaskme wrote:

How has he neglected anything to do with how children learn human perspectives,

If you can refer me to what Nick wrote about curriculum and method for teaching children at school the human perspective, please do so.

Dontaskme wrote:...
Me thinks you deliberately mis- interpret what Nick is talking about to suit your own agenda.
All Nick has done is elaborated on what is wrong with the current educational system, and that it is not a good idea to teach children false beliefs and values that are only based on a ''what's in it for ''me'', attitude...or what can ''me'' become to make ''me'' a somebody to be looked up to as being essentially the only important thing ''me'' must focus on if ''me'' is to be a success in the world. ,,,

In fact, word has it, that many good teachers are actually leaving the profession right now, because they have awakened to all the BS that is today's modern teaching ..

they automatically know there is something radically wrong with the system, ...

and that those who are leaving are fully integrating and in tune with the planets ascension into 5th dimensional consciousness and fully synchronizing with it..you may have not noticed that.

All Nick has done is elaborated on what is wrong with the current educational system, and that it is not a good idea to teach children false beliefs and values that are only based on a ''what's in it for ''me'', attitude...or what can ''me'' become to make ''me'' a somebody to be looked up to as being essentially the only important thing ''me'' must focus on if ''me'' is to be a success in the world.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:19 am Dontaskme wrote:

How has he neglected anything to do with how children learn human perspectives,

If you can refer me to what Nick wrote about curriculum and method for teaching children at school the human perspective, please do so.

"If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows." ― Plato, Phaedrus

More and more, as I see it now, this heartless way of thinking about God and ultimate reality dominates the mind of the contemporary world. For God or against God, “belief” or “atheism,” it makes no difference unless the inner yearning— or whatever we wish to call the cause and source of the “second breathing” — is there. And it can so easily be there, just as it can so easily be covered over and ignored, perhaps for the rest of one’s life. God or not God, “belief” or “science” — it also makes no real difference for my personal life unless the call of the Self and its need to “breathe” is heard and, ultimately, respected. Not only can thought about ultimate reality make no difference to the world or to my personal life unless we hear and respect the call of the Self, but such empty thought can bring down our personal and collective world, even our Earth itself. When thought races ahead of Being, a civilization is racing toward destruction.

Jacob Needleman: What Is God?

“To think about God is to the human soul what breathing is to the human body.

I say to think about God, not necessarily to believe in God–that may or may not come later.

I say: to think about God.” ~Jacob Needleman in What Is God? p. 3

Nick_A wrote:...
As a modern teacher you are concerned with teaching ideas. Your education has made you devalue remembrance and its necessity for acquiring the human perspective of the cosmic man.

"If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows." ― Plato, Phaedrus

The quality of education I refer to provides the means to enable the mind and heart opening to remembrance as opposed to closing the mind through force feeding fashionable opinions. ...

The quality of education I refer to as spirit killing discourages the nourishment from thinking about God, of wonder about the reality, the wholeness, responsible for all of creation. it kills the spirit just as lack of breathing kills the body. Secular progressive education is becoming increasingly skilled in their efforts making the path to the perspective of the cosmic man all the more difficult.