Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:41 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:10 am Obviously, nothing is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights to anyone not a US citizen.

But "guaranteeing" of rights is not the basis of rights. Locke showed that.

To say that basic human rights are "honoured" or "guaranteed by the State" is one thing; to say that they are "possessed" or "inherently deserved" is quite another.

People "posses" basic human rights, whether we deny the "honouring" or "guaranteeing" of those rights to them, or not. That's why, in rights talk, we say things like, "I have a right to...x.." even when the government is presently denying or refusing to acknowledge that right.

To put it another way, basic human rights are intrinsic. They are not conferred rights. You possess basic human rights, even when others are violating them. That's why you can still claim you are owed them.

There are and have been societies where some people were slaves. So even a right to liberty isn't somehow sacrosanct.

Non-sequitur: it does not follow.

Take Southern slavery, in the years before the Civil War. How is it that we, the anti-slavery types" could speak of slavery as "unjust"

There were not men of their time.

Slavery has been a feature of human society from the earliest times till today, and is still common. The last 200 years or so has seen a growing dissatisfaction with slavery yet, there is nothing to say this will continue.
Humans find ever more legal ways to enslave people. American gaols are full of black people working for fag money without the right to withhold their labour. Slavery is common in the richest Arab countries. They endenture Philipina women to work in the homes of the rich. IN the UK there are many sweat houses for fruit picking, and human trafficking for sex is still common.
I'm puzzled why you think a handful of socialists and libertarians who fought for emancipation make rights natural or objective.
I have no doubt that this hiatus in standard slavery is just a blip in history, and with attitudes like yours the UDHR is not going to be worth the paper that it is printed on, maybe it never was.
And the fools who think rights are natural are the ones too srupid to know that you have to fight for them.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:24 pm There were not men of their time.

Everybody's a "man of their time."

What other "time" can they be of?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:28 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:24 pm There were not men of their time.

Everybody's a "man of their time."

What other "time" can they be of?

History is change. Lucky for them they won the argument. But their work is not finished.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:36 pm Lucky for them they won the argument. But their work is not finished.

Well, they were not "lucky." That term has no meaning.

Nor is anyone position to say what their "work" would be, either then or now, if human beings have no rights.

Then there's no "work" to be done at all. Nobody's owed anything.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:53 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:20 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:17 pm The NHS cannot pay for itself. It depends on Capitalism to produce the wealth that funds it. So it's not Socialist.

It's not capitalist either

Actually, it is. Because Socialism, if it is anything at all, is an economic theory. It's also political and ideological, of course; but it's primarily about distribution, and it sees human beings as primarily economic creatures. So in order for anything to be genuinely Socialist, it must, at minimum, be economically Socialist.

The NHS is totally dependent on capitalism...as are places like Norway and Denmark, places often wrongly called "Socialist." They're just not. If the money generator, capitalism, were removed, their expensive social service systems wouldn't be self-sustaining for a month.

No idea how you are getting the idea that socialized medicine is capitalism. But if it makes you feel good, I guess that's all that counts. Knock yourself out.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:49 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:36 pm Lucky for them they won the argument. But their work is not finished.

Well, they were not "lucky." That term has no meaning.

Nor is anyone position to say what their "work" would be, either then or now, if human beings have no rights.

Then there's no "work" to be done at all. Nobody's owed anything.

I think the matter is closed

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:53 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:20 am
It's not capitalist either

Actually, it is. Because Socialism, if it is anything at all, is an economic theory. It's also political and ideological, of course; but it's primarily about distribution, and it sees human beings as primarily economic creatures. So in order for anything to be genuinely Socialist, it must, at minimum, be economically Socialist.

The NHS is totally dependent on capitalism...as are places like Norway and Denmark, places often wrongly called "Socialist." They're just not. If the money generator, capitalism, were removed, their expensive social service systems wouldn't be self-sustaining for a month.

No idea how you are getting the idea that socialized medicine is capitalism. But if it makes you feel good, I guess that's all that counts. Knock yourself out.

It's because he is a rabid fascist.
Talking to him is like banging your head against a wall.
His argument is this. Socialism is bad, umkay! The health systems of the UK, and Scandinavia are good, therefore they are not socialized.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 pm No idea how you are getting the idea that socialized medicine is capitalism.

That's easy, Gary. Socialized medicine is entirely dependent on capitalism. What's hard to understand about that? Socialism can't fund its own programs. It's an economic failure.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:03 pm It's because he is a rabid fascist.

Fascists are National Socialists.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:10 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:03 pm It's because he is a rabid fascist.

Fascists are National Socialists.

and East germany was DEMOCRATIC.
American football is the WORLD SERIES.

Fuck off you braindead idiot. Run along and get a life!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:10 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:03 pm It's because he is a rabid fascist.

Fascists are National Socialists.

and East germany was DEMOCRATIC.

What's the surprise? Socialists lie. They are still trying to say "democratic Socialism."

American football is the WORLD SERIES.

That would be "baseball."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:26 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:10 pm
Fascists are National Socialists.

and East germany was DEMOCRATIC.

What's the surprise? Socialists lie. They are still trying to say "democratic Socialism."

American football is the WORLD SERIES.

That would be "baseball."

Like I give a damn?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:10 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:03 pm It's because he is a rabid fascist.

Fascists are National Socialists.

Fascist lie!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 pm No idea how you are getting the idea that socialized medicine is capitalism.

That's easy, Gary. Socialized medicine is entirely dependent on capitalism. What's hard to understand about that? Socialism can't fund its own programs. It's an economic failure.

And capitalism is not going to sustain the poor. So you need both systems, end of story. Sorry.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:49 pm And capitalism is not going to sustain the poor.

Actually, it is capitalism that has been eliminating poverty worldwide, especially through programs like microenterprise.