The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

[Sculptor]

If we're not talking about contractual fraud and we're only talking about someone following an order, then the person giving the order is not responsible for people following the order and performing whatever actions they performed as part of the order on my view, and I'd not hold them legally or morally responsible. You know this already (that this is my view).

You are a fuck wit.

If only that would result in me changing my opinion!

If only!

[Lacewing]

I'm intrigued by the crazies, because at least they can provide something novel--some new twist on lunacy, and I find it an interesting challenge to see if I can get them to be a little less crazy

Me too... but I think they're in a constant state of doubling down on their crazy because they fear the death of their ego/identity.

In my 20's, I was faced with the absolute terror of such a thing. I went through a 5-year phase of taking psychedelics and going to Grateful Dead shows with my husband. It was a powerfully transformative time for me, following a childhood of being raised as a good little Christian girl who wasn't supposed to question anything beyond the concept of a God and all of the imaginative stories and ideas associated with that. During my transformative de-programming, there were three distinct doors (so to speak) I encountered. The first door was something like terror: wishing I could "unsee" the broader realization that had come over me, and wishing I could go back to being oblivious of it! The second door was something like defiance: in regard to acknowledging how "wrong" I had been up to that point, and I remember thinking I could just keep doubling-down in order to "be right", never admit my foolishness, and no one could force me to do otherwise, and I could take it to my grave. The third door was something like acceptance: that the Universe and its potential really are SO MUCH bigger than the stories we often make up, and that it's possible to flow very naturally and (even more) efficiently with that. The need for "being right" is rather pointless -- it simply requires and leads to continued delusion.

So I think I can understand a little bit about the fear and resistance that might make some people do or say just about anything to protect their egos. The more bizarre and persistent their claims, the bigger the ego/identity and the greater the resistance and rigidity, it seems. It is too big of a step (perhaps) for them to acknowledge their foolishness because they aren't loving enough to forgive themselves or anyone else. And they're desperately attached to a limited world/cosmic view that makes them feel secure and "right". I always hope that people will at least recognize that they can expand their thinking if they want to... because that might open a giant door for their expansion and freedom from themselves... but if they are resistant, I might as well have some fun responding to their puffed up stories/claims with the same theatrical vigor that they demonstrate.

Love is letting go.

[Terrapin Station]

I'm intrigued by the crazies, because at least they can provide something novel--some new twist on lunacy, and I find it an interesting challenge to see if I can get them to be a little less crazy

Me too... but I think they're in a constant state of doubling down on their crazy because they fear the death of their ego/identity.

In my 20's, I was faced with the absolute terror of such a thing. I went through a 5-year phase of taking psychedelics and going to Grateful Dead shows with my husband. It was a powerfully transformative time for me, following a childhood of being raised as a good little Christian girl who wasn't supposed to question anything beyond the concept of a God and all of the imaginative stories and ideas associated with that. During my transformative de-programming, there were three distinct doors (so to speak) I encountered. The first door was something like terror: wishing I could "unsee" the broader realization that had come over me, and wishing I could go back to being oblivious of it! The second door was something like defiance: in regard to acknowledging how "wrong" I had been up to that point, and I remember thinking I could just keep doubling-down in order to "be right", never admit my foolishness, and no one could force me to do otherwise, and I could take it to my grave. The third door was something like acceptance: that the Universe and its potential really are SO MUCH bigger than the stories we often make up, and that it's possible to flow very naturally and (even more) efficiently with that. The need for "being right" is rather pointless -- it simply requires and leads to continued delusion.

So I think I can understand a little bit about the fear and resistance that might make some people do or say just about anything to protect their egos. The more bizarre and persistent their claims, the bigger the ego/identity and the greater the resistance and rigidity, it seems. It is too big of a step (perhaps) for them to acknowledge their foolishness because they aren't loving enough to forgive themselves or anyone else. And they're desperately attached to a limited world/cosmic view that makes them feel secure and "right". I always hope that people will at least recognize that they can expand their thinking if they want to... because that might open a giant door for their expansion and freedom from themselves... but if they are resistant, I might as well have some fun responding to their puffed up stories/claims with the same theatrical vigor that they demonstrate.

Interesting comment
-----------\▔\
------------)....)
-----------/..../▂▂▂
▂▂╱┈ ▕▂▂▂▏
▉┈-┈┈ ▕▂▂▂▏
▉┈-┈┈▕▂▂▂▏
▔▔╲▂▕▂▂▏

Are you still a Dead fan, by the way? I'm a big Dead fan (as is probably obvious from my name and avatar)

[Lacewing]

Are you still a Dead fan, by the way? I'm a big Dead fan (as is probably obvious from my name and avatar)

I still have all their music... I loved Terrapin Station... and when I hear them now, it brings back a certain glow ...but admittedly my connection has been most enduring over the years with Genesis, Moody Blues, and my all-time favorite... Led Zeppelin. Led Zep seems like a soundtrack for my soul.

[UniversalAlien]

Back to: "The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!"

And, If I'm understanding some of the previous debate - Is Donald Trump responsible
- Should he be convicted in the upcoming impeachment trial

My opinion is YES

Not only was he instigating the situation for months by lying about election fraud which court after court
denied - There was no election fraud and he knew it !

But, and most important - When the actual violent storming of the Capitol began, he did nothing but watch, when he could immediately have conveyed his wishes for them to stop.

Later, he did finally tell them "we love you" but it's time to go home and eventually did condemn violence.

Being the 'Commander in Chief' and chief architect of the insurrection of the Capitol and failing to stop it when it became violent, he is guilty.

[tillingborn]

Aside from the fact that in general, discourse is unlikely to change anyone's foundational moral/ethical stances, because those are basically emotional dispositions

The more I'm thinking about it, the more complicated it becomes. I suppose if it were simple, it would have been sorted out in Ancient Greece at the latest. You don't have to explore human beings particularly carefully to recognise that they broadly fall into deontologists and consequentialists, and that those dispositions are loose guides to political affiliations, religious persuasions and even creativity.

I've been doing this stuff, where I pursued a professional path for it in the past, even, for close to 50 years now--I first became intensely interested in philosophy around late 1972/early 1973. So I've been around the block multiple times.

I shan't be far behind you when we shuffle off this mortal coil.

It's not often that I run into any ideas on boards that I haven't already run into many times. It's not that that's impossible, it's just unlikely, especially as so many people on boards like this are basically trying to recreate the wheel. Relatively novel exhibits of crazy are another issue, like the guy I've been going back and forth with who believes that different words can refer to the same thing, but the same word on different occasions can not. (And that's one reason I'm intrigued by the crazies, because at least they can provide something novel--some new twist on lunacy, and I find it an interesting challenge to see if I can get them to be a little less crazy, assuming that they're not just trolling, which I'm never sure of.)

I think that is ambitious; particularly given that you know that discourse is unlikely to change even the sane emotional dispositions. Still, it's a challenge.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I am hoping that the conservatives here try to discourage the extremes on your side.

Hopefully things will de-escallate but does anyone here NOT think that Trump is acting criminal? Trump should be immediately removed for sedition.

I totally agree with you. But for many years now, since The Apprentice, I've known that he's an idiot. Of course in addition, his four years as president, if you can call it that, has proven that he's a liar, a would be thief, a heartless thug, (but only because he's protected), a coward hiding in the bunker, while poor cheated blacks and whites are tear gassed, did I say he's a liar, then there's the fact that he's a liar, oh yeah and then he's a liar. Did I mention that he's a criminal? Then there's the fact that he's incited killers to kill, which they did. Not to mention the COVID-19 victims that he failed to even try to protect. Yeah he never really deserved the presidency, because he never really performed the job of president.

Good riddance.

[FlashDangerpants]

"Show your work," in math class means to show how a conclusion is determined.

That's a pretty basic concept.

A conclusion by itself has all the opinionated power of a butterfly floating by, or a fart in the wind if that better suits.

Show us the antifa double agent who was identified by facial recognition software then.

a good indicator of who the rioters were will be...

how quickly arrests are made

...and...

if the arrests are announced overtly

if the rioters were ORANGE MAN folks, expect fast arrests with top of the hour, front page coverage

if even a few of the rioters were masqueraders, arrests won't come quickly and certainly won't be reported (or, at least, won't be reported as headline material)

no one wants to drag friends thru the mud

So a whole bunch of QAnon fools and Proud Boys have gotten rounded up now.
Like this guy, one of many white supremacists who enterred the Capitol on Trump's behalf...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/20/us/p ... index.html

So these were, by your own reasoning, ORANGE MAN folks, not Antifa.

Glad we could clear that up once and for all.

[henry quirk]

Show us the antifa double agent who was identified by facial recognition software then.

a good indicator of who the rioters were will be...

how quickly arrests are made

...and...

if the arrests are announced overtly

if the rioters were ORANGE MAN folks, expect fast arrests with top of the hour, front page coverage

if even a few of the rioters were masqueraders, arrests won't come quickly and certainly won't be reported (or, at least, won't be reported as headline material)

no one wants to drag friends thru the mud

So a whole bunch of QAnon fools and Proud Boys have gotten rounded up now.
Like this guy, one of many white supremacists who enterred the Capitol on Trump's behalf...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/20/us/p ... index.html

So these were, by your own reasoning, ORANGE MAN folks, not Antifa.

Glad we could clear that up once and for all.

yep...what's your point? I gave you a standard, it checked out...are you congratulatin' me on my keen insight?

[FlashDangerpants]

yep...what's your point? I gave you a standard, it checked out...are you congratulatin' me on my keen insight?

I was interested to see if you would make up something new for Walker's benefit while still finding some way to hedge your bets.

So we are now agreed that the problem at the Capitol was that the infiltrators if they are to be described as such were no antifa, but the array of paranoid Q fanatics and white supremacists who have been getting rounded up?

[henry quirk]

yep...what's your point? I gave you a standard, it checked out...are you congratulatin' me on my keen insight?

I was interested to see if you would make up something new for Walker's benefit while still finding some way to hedge your bets.

So we are now agreed that the problem at the Capitol was that the infiltrators if they are to be described as such were no antifa, but the array of paranoid Q fanatics and white supremacists who have been getting rounded up?

yeah, we're done, flash...all you wanna do is play the trip Henry up game...my views on the subject are in the thread...agree, disagree, find 'em coherent or incoherent: I don't care

[FlashDangerpants]

Have they identified any yet from the many cameras and existent facial recognition software?

If they haven't yet, they will.

They don't install that stuff just for decoration.

You are aware that it exists, aren't you?

(That's my work, Einstein.)


I won't hold my breath waiting for reciprocation.

Tell you what. Could you save us the bother and see if any Antifa have been identified yet? It seems to be a hot topic of interest for you. Looking for someone you know?

So, a bunch of white supremacists have been identified. A bunch of QFreaks have been identified too.
But no Antifa....

[FlashDangerpants]

yep...what's your point? I gave you a standard, it checked out...are you congratulatin' me on my keen insight?

I was interested to see if you would make up something new for Walker's benefit while still finding some way to hedge your bets.

So we are now agreed that the problem at the Capitol was that the infiltrators if they are to be described as such were no antifa, but the array of paranoid Q fanatics and white supremacists who have been getting rounded up?

yeah, we're done, flash...all you wanna do is play the trip Henry up game...my views on the subject are in the thread...agree, disagree, find 'em coherent or incoherent: I don't care

Nope. I was just taking a pawn off the board to stop you running interference for Walker.

[henry quirk]

I was interested to see if you would make up something new for Walker's benefit while still finding some way to hedge your bets.

So we are now agreed that the problem at the Capitol was that the infiltrators if they are to be described as such were no antifa, but the array of paranoid Q fanatics and white supremacists who have been getting rounded up?

yeah, we're done, flash...all you wanna do is play the trip Henry up game...my views on the subject are in the thread...agree, disagree, find 'em coherent or incoherent: I don't care

Nope. I was just taking a pawn off the board to stop you running interference for Walker.

which I wasn't doin' anyway...really, you need to catch up with who is doin' what

[commonsense]

It is with a degree of anxiety that I envision the future of the US, and thereby the rest of the nations. I am neither being negative nor paranoid when I opine that saying unity does not create unity.

It is easy for the one side to call for unity—the anti-Trumpers, the pro-Bidens, the progressives, the Democrats et al—for to them unity means everyone should join them and their leftist way of thinking.

But for both the conservatives and the radicals on the right, unity means having thoughts and ideas, wants and wishes, goals and passions squelched. Because there’s a real possibility that their voices won’t be heard.

Healing is not going to just happen and it won’t be achieved in a matter of months. What to do, what to do?