Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote:Of course science is discussing this topic..I can give you a ton of links that show just that if you are interested?

What on earth do you think philosophy is..does it have exclusive rights to what can and can't be discussed or something?

It's not what I think Philosophy is but what I think Science is but for sure go ahead and post these links.

Dontaskme wrote:You are beyond the body, ...

Where beyond?

not the body, you are the awareness of the body, ...

If I am the body's awareness then I am a body no?

you cannot experience yourself as the body, ...

Look at your hands, feet, torso, legs, etc. You don't notice the rise and fall of your chest, the air passing your nostrils, the beat of your heart, the pressure on your soles, etc?

the body is functioning on automatic pilot just as all life is living itself...spontaneously and automatically one without a second...there is no one to ignore it, ...

And yet I think that is exactly what you are doing with your ideas?

it's self functioning, it will inform itself when something is not right, ..if it wasn't for the awareness within the body mind mechanism, no action to correct itself would ever take place...

If the body informs itself then what point this correcting mechanism?

Who are you then that feels like it is a body... you are the awareness of the body....the body is just like any object....you see the computer, it is an object in your awareness... but you are not the computer, but the computer, is appearing in you the body mind mechanism....the body mind mechanism is like the computer, it is the character in it's own dream playing the role of being a human character, the character that you mistake to be your body is just a machine,the instrument for experience...of the eternal experiencer...in which you as awareness experience temporal experiences. You are beyond the character, you are the awareness in which the dream is arising as the character ...you are eternal unchanging awareness dreaming it is a man in temporal real space time cause and effect duality. ...

If the body has awareness then it is hardly a machine. You appear to have two awarenesses in your ideas, the body's and this 'eternal experiencer', how do they differ and where does this 'eternal experiencer' exist?

''As I can't be what I perceive, I am not this body-mind or any thing that I am conscious of.''

You are exactly what you perceive and are conscious of, to wit, a body with senses in an external world that is aware of this.

By becoming aware that I am aware, and that I am not my thoughts, but the constant watcher of them, I noticed the thoughts coming and going, while the awareness of those thoughts did not come and go...I saw my unchanging aware SELF within my temporal changing body....realising that I have to be immortal for this changing mortality that is the body to be a possibility ..there has to be a constant stable unchanging ground of all being for the cycle of life and death to become a reality. ...

Why? This 'awareness of thoughts' is a thought but I'm not quite sure what you mean by a 'thought', do you mean a sequence of sounds, images, feeling, etc or the inner voice of language?

Anything born has to be born from out of itself that must always exist, life can only come from life... much like the silk thread that comes out of a spiders own body.. the threads of life come out of it's own SELF to form the tapestry that is live living from it's own SELF...forever.

I think 'life' a reification and living things are not born from themselves but from other living things.

How it ever got off it's own starting block will always remain a mystery...if we knew the answers and how this all happens, we wouldn't have no drive for it...it's what makes every moment so fresh and alive in every moment...for new creative ideas to come into force...it's creations are endless infinitely, no one knows what is going to happen next..if we did, I doubt we'd even get out of bed..life is always under construction. ...

I think the Sciences will give an explanation for how we got started and it'll make no difference to our drive as our drive is due to us knowing we are temporary.

There is no inbetween except as an idea, a dream story...where is the inbetween gap between two infinities WHERE you happen?
Can there be a gap between now and now?

The gap is the thing we call living and it's what enables past, present and future for each individual.

You have never experienced your own absence. ...

So what's empty consciousness then?

In the same sense that you have never experienced your presence in deep dreamless sleep.

By definition surely?

Presence is what you ARE...it's wide awake...sleep it the opposite polarity to itself...it cannot not exist, so it has to exist.

Contradictions are always false.

Birth and Death are in the dream of separation,in the world of duality..aka the mind of conceptual thought.. within the eternal unborn undying awareness that has to be for mind to know itself....awareness is beyond the mind of duality...it is the not-a-thing.. non-dual source of everything.

Why does there have to be this "eternal unborn undying awareness"? If you are the body's awareness then the body must be enough, that and an external world of course.

It's not a religion, ...

I know, it's a metaphysic.

It's who you are..and it's amazing beyond belief.

It can;t be 'who I am' as you say there is no 'who I am'? Nor can it be amazing as you say there is no one to be amazed. Me, I find being a body with senses, memory and langauge in an external world more than enough amazement to be going on with.

So what have we learned? The normal secular view is that we exist but eternal values do not. We've learned that since we don't exist, it really doesn't matter. Only God can prostitute itself which means God is a woman. Progress

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Of course science is discussing this topic..I can give you a ton of links that show just that if you are interested?

What on earth do you think philosophy is..does it have exclusive rights to what can and can't be discussed or something?

It's not what I think Philosophy is but what I think Science is but for sure go ahead and post these links.

What matters is what is doing this investigating, this studying, this discovering into the true nature of self... and so forth... the one prime question we should be asking ourselves ..is ..what AM I and who AM I?


There is a ton load of links but lets just look at one at a time, we don't want overload on consciousness info too much..

Anil Seth is a Cognitive Neuroscientist.


How does consciousness happen? Anil Seth speaks at TED2017

“We don’t just passively perceive the world; we actively generate it,” says cognitive scientist Anil Seth. He spoke at TED2017, April 26, 2017, Vancouver, BC, Canada.

......

Perception is a hallucination. Surprise! In Session 4, Anil Seth made a convincing case that we’re hallucinating all the time. In a delightfully disorienting talk, he explained how our minds are constantly making “best guesses” between sensory signals and prior experiences, then updating with new information. “It’s just that when we agree about our hallucinations, that’s what we call ‘reality,’” he said.

......

“My research shows that consciousness has less to do with pure intelligence and more to do with our nature as living and breathing organisms,” Seth said. After all, you don’t have to be a super-intelligent AI to suffer. You have to be alive.

......

Seth said humans stand as part of—and not apart from—the rest of nature. In that sense, he said, we have nothing to fear from death—the end of consciousness, which is just one way of being in the universe. “Nothing at all,” he said.

.....

In a TED Talk in Vancouver on Wednesday, Seth, a co-director of the Sackler Centre for Consciousness Science and professor at the University of Sussex, explained why doing so (uploading consciousness) was impossible.

“What it means to be me cannot be reduced to — or uploaded to — a software program running on a robot, however smart or sophisticated,” Seth said.

Our conscious experiences “are shaped at all levels,” he continued, referring to the idea that consciousness does not exist solely in the mind.

Read More

https://www.ted.com/search?q=anil+seth

http://blog.ted.com/how-does-consciousn ... eaks-at-te...

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/ted-day-t ... d-talk-won...

https://www.inverse.com/article/30849-u ... neural-lac...

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmWhy does there have to be this "eternal unborn undying awareness"? If you are the body's awareness then the body must be enough, that and an external world of course.

There are two aspects that make up the mind/body mechanism...You wouldn't be able to know what change was without any comparison to change which is the unchanging aspect of you..

There is the mind of consciousness, the changing part...and the pure consciousness which is better known as awareness that does not change.

Your life experiences are changing from one moment to the next...but the part of you that knows change does not change...in the same context as knowing the colour red is red and that colour red will always be red, it will not change to blue...these two aspects mind consciousness and pure consciousness exist simultaneously as one infinitely experiencing itself...and every other person or creature is a hologram of that same consciousness.

There is only consciousness.

Does that not make sense to you?

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmIt can;t be 'who I am' as you say there is no 'who I am'? Nor can it be amazing as you say there is no one to be amazed. Me, I find being a body with senses, memory and langauge in an external world more than enough amazement to be going on with.

I said there is no separate you. The separate you is an experience the real you is having, the real you is eternal.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pm The gap is the thing we call living and it's what enables past, present and future for each individual.

These are all thoughts arising and falling in the constant presence of now...which never moved an inch. The gap between the thoughts is called awareness...that's who you are, silent knowing presence that is constant, it never sleeps, it's unborn and cannot die.

What we call living, past and present and future is all thought...but you are the awareness of that thought, not the thought, the thought is just a temporal experience of the infinite one...aka awareness. Thoughts are not aware, they are watched...they are the looked upon.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmYou have never experienced your own absence. ...
So what's empty consciousness then?

The awareness presence that is prior to any thought...and the knower of every thought in the instant they arise. It's everywhere at once one without a second...and that's who you are...another word for it is space.

First you are space, and second you are what's appearing and disappearing in space.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmI think 'life' a reification and living things are not born from themselves but from other living things.

There is nothing separating your body from the body of a tree....except a perception which is also inseparable from the whole matrix of life...everything is appearing within the same space/reality.

Awareness pervades it all.

The SELF is just another word for space. That which appears and disappears in this space appears to be born and die...but the space in which this happens is neither born or can die.
Your body is made up of everything that came before it..there is no dividing line where one thing starts and another thing ends....it's all one seamless space...apparently divided by thoughts, which are things appearing in space which is not-a-thing. Can't make sense of reality without the seeming contrast.

.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmYou are beyond the body, ...
Where beyond?

You are the source of yourself...source is unknowable..beyond the knowing mind...yet it's right here, as the unknown known.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmnot the body, you are the awareness of the body, ...
If I am the body's awareness then I am a body no?

You need a body to experience, but you are not the body no more than you are an amputated leg or arm.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 pmyou cannot experience yourself as the body, ...
Look at your hands, feet, torso, legs, etc. You don't notice the rise and fall of your chest, the air passing your nostrils, the beat of your heart, the pressure on your soles, etc?

Awareness is looking at your body parts. Being aware is not an experience, ... knowing you have body parts is an appearance in awareness as the experience of knowledge...But awareness does not appear, it's not an experience.. it's that in which experiences knowledge appear...you cannot know what it like to be your body parts, you can only be aware that they are there...as conceptual knowledge of them, not by experiencing them.

If you could experience your body parts..you would know what it feels like to be a heart or a strand of hair...but these things are not aware to know they exist...these things are just thoughts... body parts are not aware....body parts are known in awareness...do you see this, or is it too confusing?

.

Dontaskme wrote:You are the source of yourself...source is unknowable..beyond the knowing mind...yet it's right here, as the unknown known. ...

Contradictions are always false.

You need a body to experience, but you are not the body no more than you are an amputated leg or arm.

But you said we are the body's awareness?

Awareness is looking at your body parts. Being aware is not an experience, ... knowing you have body parts is an appearance in awareness as the experience of knowledge...But awareness does not appear, it's not an experience.. it's that in which experiences knowledge appear...you cannot know what it like to be your body parts, you can only be aware that they are there...as conceptual knowledge of them, not by experiencing them.

But you said you can be aware you are aware so you are experiencing awareness?

I can experience my hand moving and touching and all the other parts and the reason why is that I am them and they are me.

If you could experience your body parts..you would know what it feels like to be a heart or a strand of hair...but these things are not aware to know they exist...these things are just thoughts... body parts are not aware....body parts are known in awareness...do you see this, or is it too confusing?

Not confusing at all as there are no parts just the whole and that whole is the body and it is a thing I am acutely aware of.

Dontaskme wrote:There is nothing separating your body from the body of a tree....except a perception which is also inseparable from the whole matrix of life...everything is appearing within the same space/reality. ...

Try touching a tree from further than arms length.

Awareness pervades it all.

The SELF is just another word for space. That which appears and disappears in this space appears to be born and die...but the space in which this happens is neither born or can die. ...

For me the 'self' is many things, that which language creates in us as an other, that which is identified by the existence of others and that which is constructed from the existence of being a body in an external world.

Your body is made up of everything that came before it..there is no dividing line where one thing starts and another thing ends....it's all one seamless space...apparently divided by thoughts, which are things appearing in space which is not-a-thing. Can't make sense of reality without the seeming contrast.

Try running at a tree and not stopping to discover where one thing starts and another ends.

Yrreg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:16 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm[Bolding by Yrreg]

Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.

It has become acceptable in modern times to suggest that we create our own reality and values so by definition they have a pragmatic social origin. They are temporary in contrast with eternal values which are permanent.

From this perspective is it right to say that sexual prostitution no longer exists since there are no eternal values? We create our own values. If women or men are seen as prostitutes, aren’t they really just being themselves? How can a person prostitute themselves if they create their own reality and have nothing objective to prostitute? A man or woman cannot sell themselves cheaply since they are just being normal and have defined their own worth.

Should colleges ban the use of the word since like many other words, prostitution or the loss of objective human quality by selling oneself cheaply is now considered insulting and politically incorrect?

The author of the thread asks the question, "Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values?

I submit that the answer should be founded upon the definitions of the following three terms:

1. prostitution
2. eternal values
3. sell themselves

From my part I understand No. 1 prostitution to consist in a person selling sexual service to another person.

As regard No. 2 eternal values I understand it to mean moral norms that must be enforced by a particular society for as long as such a particular society is determined to enforce it as one of its moral norms.

As regards No. 3 sell themselves, I understand it to mean prostitution as understood in my definition No. 1, see above.

So, on the basis of my definition of eternal values in No. 2, my answer to the question of the OP, namely:

"Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values?"

My answer is:

"No, prostitution does not exist for those who do not recognize it to be prohibited in their society as one of their eternal values."

Dear colleagues here, what are your comments to my answer to the OP?

I disagree! Not with your final answer, but rather with the path you took.
First let's deal with Eternal:
eternal [ih-tur-nl]
adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
5. something that is eternal.
6. the Eternal, God. --dictionary.com--
So "eternal" can only be seen as an archaic word, that has obviously outlived it's usefulness, as science has never shown anything to be eternal, quite the contrary. Everything that the universe is, is in constant change, thus not eternal. It was obviously coined by a hopeful, that they would never die, that their consciousness would live forever, there has never been any 'proof' that such a wishful concept is true in any way. It's just a word of the fearful, in denial of the seemingly uncomfortable truth, that the universe is in constant revision.

So 'eternal' deals with a universal, that which as yet, we are too young to know with any amount of certainty.

Next Values:
value[val-yoo]
noun
1. relative worth, merit, or importance: the value of a college education; the value of a queen in chess.
2. monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade: This piece of land has greatly increased in value.
3. the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange.
4. equivalent worth or return in money, material, services, etc.: to give value for value received.
5. estimated or assigned worth; valuation: a painting with a current value of $500,000.
6. denomination, as of a monetary issue or a postage stamp.
7. Mathematics.
....magnitude; quantity; number represented by a figure, symbol, or the like: the value of an angle; the value of x; the value of a sum.
....a point in the range of a function; a point in the range corresponding to a given point in the domain of a function: The value of x 2 at 2 is 4.
8. import or meaning; force; significance: the value of a word.
9. liking or affection; favorable regard.
10. values, Sociology. the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy.
11. Ethics. any object or quality desirable as a means or as an end in itself.
12. Fine Arts.
....degree of lightness or darkness in a color.
....the relation of light and shade in a painting, drawing, or the like.
13. Music. the relative length or duration of a tone signified by a note.
14. values, Mining. the marketable portions of an orebody.
15. Phonetics.
....quality.
....the phonetic equivalent of a letter, as the sound of a in hat, sang, etc.
verb (used with object), valued, valuing.
16. to calculate or reckon the monetary value of; give a specified material or financial value to; assess; appraise: to value their assets.
17. to consider with respect to worth, excellence, usefulness, or importance.
18. to regard or esteem highly: He values her friendship. --dictionary.com--
So values can only be seen as something that can only ever change, much like the universe. As different cultures, and different people for that matter, have different ideas what is and is not valuable, it's all about subjective analysis. Once cannibals probably valued eating another humans heart above all other parts of the body. But largely such values are no longer in style, much to everyone’s delight, they definitely weren't eternal. The sexual prostitute values money more than her/his body, in that she/he trusts it to those they don't really know, while others value their body over money. And the list of differences goes on and on and on, which is why humans argue on things so much, i.e., different values!

So 'values' deals with human subjective conceptualization, NOT a universal. And since there are ever varying differentiation between us, solely dependant upon environmental experiences, we "can" say that humans all share such a thing as values, however as to specific values, we can "only say" that we often differ in what is and is not valuable. Certainly values can never be seen as eternal, as they are not of the universe, only ever in the minds of humans, as a way to deal with the plight of the human animal's challenges. They differ because challenges differ amongst us. And no value can be seen as "necessarily" right, because they are not universal amongst us, except those things that are definitely common to all of us, air, water, food, shelter, a mate of some sort, whether one or many. See how I started listing things in variable terms, such are the values between us. Keep in mind that if I so chose, I could rip apart any value, relative to another, with seemingly valid conclusions. Ah, the variability of the human conceptual mind, it really knows no bounds, gods anyone?

And now for the juiciest one, Prostitution:
prostitution [pros-ti-too-shuh n, -tyoo-]
noun
1. the act or practice of engaging in sexual intercourse for money.
2. base or unworthy use, as of talent or ability. --dictionary.com--
Note the second definition. So it's not exclusive to sex. And well it shouldn't be. As originally it simply pitted values against values, coined by those that insisted theirs were superior, probably by the wives of the unfaithful fornicating husbands. But it really makes no difference. In human society, the one that reigns supreme is the one agreed upon by the majority, in other words, "the mob always rules!" To band together! OR... So ordered by those in power, but then absolute power corrupts absolutely. Who is to really say which values amongst humans are right and wrong? Certainly not the universe, the only thing that "might" actually be eternal. It seems that it couldn't 'care' less, as if it could possibly 'care' at all. I see that to prostitute is any time one sells one thing that they originally held dear, for another thing that they now hold more dear. What? Proof of how values change with the current? Yeeeesssss that's it!

Silly fickle humans, whose minds change with the tide, always seeking that next glittering prize, fearful of death, always seeking that which might cheat death, if only in their minds eye. The next great concept, that shall trump them all, if only one can cause it to climb the charts of acceptance by the mob.

So in my mind it's very simple. The only thing we "absolutely owe one another" is to "leave one another alone to their own devices." As long as all those that are a party to such devices want to be included. All those that disagree, need do no other, than create their own devices, leaving others to their own. To actually know and practice "live and let live." To hell with gods, as they create their dogma, then force others to live their short lives, as slaves to such temporal fickleness.

There is no one rule that applies to all, except to allow each entity to steer their own life's ship on what ever course they deem necessary that doesn't collide or sink another's.

No human conceptual values can ever be eternal, as to the best of human "knowledge" ("true" human knowledge) there is no such thing as eternal. It's just wishful thinking.

Get over yourself people, it's simply enough to live your life as best as you can, always fighting the good fight, never hurting those that mind their own business while doing the same.

The only telling others of what they should do, is telling them to leave others alone, to do their own non-harming of others. Oh what a great world it would be, with no slaves anywhere, in any way, shape or form, of that nasty human concept, known as "slavery." No one should want to be even a hint of another's slave, unless of course that's their bag. But then that's the beauty of the golden rule, as it's been revised to meet all humans needs.

Peace, my friends!

P.S. to be redundant, or to sink in what needs sinking in?

Edit: changed "could" to "couldn't" (in bold above)

SpheresofBalance, despite the truths in your post there is more to be said for eternity than you give it credit for.

Thoughts of what we fancy to be eternity but are probably analogies are nevertheless ways to be sceptical about the ontology we are closest to. It's good to be permanently uncertain .From our temporal beings we can't know the whole of nature . Time although it undoubtedly exists within this relative world is also a human concept. We cannot therefor presume that time precedes eternity. Or vice versa.

Doubt is good politically and morally. Values are plural and cannot therefore be eternal ; you are right about values.

Rumi:

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other
doesn’t make any sense.”

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:23 am

Dontaskme wrote:There is nothing separating your body from the body of a tree....except a perception which is also inseparable from the whole matrix of life...everything is appearing within the same space/reality. ...

Try touching a tree from further than arms length.

You have no idea the tree exists until you make contact with the tree, either by touch or sight...the sensation of the tree is inseparable from the the toucher..the toucher and the feeling of the tree are one in the same moment...the separation is pure illusion.
When not-knowing awareness knows sensation consciousness is born/ the known...they are one in the same moment.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:23 amTry running at a tree and not stopping to discover where one thing starts and another ends.

Without an object, you aka space, aka awareness would not know you exist...the object tells you you exist, it is you, not outside of you. See previous post above...

.

How can separation be possible except as the split mind of duality ?

Everything is in the same one space...everything is nothing and nothing is everything...where is the separation Arising-uk ...where?

.

Dontaskme wrote:

You have no idea the tree exists until you make contact with the tree, either by touch or sight...the sensation of the tree is inseparable from the the toucher..the toucher and the feeling of the tree are one in the same moment...the separation is pure illusion.
When not-knowing awareness knows sensation consciousness is born/ the known...they are one in the same moment.

[/quote

Does the tree cease to exist except when someone is perceiving it?