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And this is precisely why you, and so many others here, can't say why slavery is wrong. The best you can do is say I don't like it.
How bizarre! It all depends on YOU. Slavery is harmful and unfair. That might be fine with you. The slaver persona. I very much doubt it's fine with you personally. But that's not the question is it? How do I convince a slaver that he must repent and atone? Even enslaving him might not achieve it, treating him as he treats others. He might be so depraved that do as you would be done by means he would have himself enslaved, fair dos, rather be enslaved, than stop slaving. He would rather be devoured than not devour; homo homini lupus est. Many behave exactly like that. Are Faustus. Whole sophisticated cultures persist in doing the wrong thing to the bitter end. Germany 1933-45. The only thing that stopped slavery in the Caribbean was slave revolts. And capitalism in no small measure in response. Not abolition.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:15 pmAnd this is precisely why you, and so many others here, can't say why slavery is wrong. The best you can do is say I don't like it.
I suggest that religion emerges from viewing the unfathomable order of the universe and concluding - via simple commonsense - that the order of it all could not possibly be a product of the blind and mindless processes of chance.Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:00 pm Religion emerges from a couple or three of these reflexes https://moralfoundations.org/.
I'll stop you at your first sentence and never mind the catadromous reason gone over the weir, after the slop of faith. Chance is the sound of one hand clapping. The other hand is necessity. In fact chance is a perichoretic part of necessity. Of order. Which does not imply meaning. No incoherent unwarranted unjustified untrue belief is required. No eversion. No wearing your guts on the outside like a large stamped on slug. No theodicy calling black white, evil good.seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:18 pmI suggest that religion emerges from viewing the unfathomable order of the universe and concluding - via simple commonsense - that the order of it all could not possibly be a product of the blind and mindless processes of chance.Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:00 pm Religion emerges from a couple or three of these reflexes https://moralfoundations.org/.
I furthermore suggest that if me and Berkeley might possibly be correct, in that the universe is the mind of a higher consciousness,...
...then that means that our bodies and brains are constructed from this higher Being's living mental essence (mental fabric/mental holography).
In which case, religion emerges, not via evolution, but by reason of the fact that many humans experience an ineffable yet intuitive sensing of the presence of this higher Being.
And that would be metaphorically similar to the way that if we were conscious enough at the time, we might have intuitively sensed the presence of our mother's higher beingness while we were suspended in the darkness of her womb.
Indeed, imagine a fanciful thought experiment wherein a religion might emerge among a "society" consisting of a set of wombed quintuplets who cannot see the actual (outer) form of the higher being that their religion is based upon,...
...but nevertheless, can collectively intuit (feel/sense) the presence of this higher being because their entire world is literally created from the very fabric of this higher being's body.
Well, as crazy as that thought experiment may sound, I suggest that something along those lines is the fundamental reason for the emergence of religion(s) among humans.
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This "Higher Being" is not only mental but also physical, and nobody knows how many more attributes besides thought and extensionthen that means that our bodies and brains are constructed from this higher Being's living mental essence (mental fabric/mental holography).
Slavery is wrong because a man is not a commodity, and no man is more entitled than any other man.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:15 pmAnd this is precisely why you, and so many others here, can't say why slavery is wrong. The best you can do is say I don't like it.
Uh, no. If that were the case then every comatose person, every anesthetized person, would be fair game for organ harvesting and rape and Crom knows what.Henry, slavery is wrong because it treats people as commodities.
It is wrong to treat people as commodities because living people can feel.
Better, but you're still not there, B.
Of course it doesn't. Moral relativism is and always has been a dead end.It all depends on YOU.
Your objection is real and up to date and I must take it on board. Here's an extreme example: Gisèle Pelicot Trial: Ex-Husband Jailed For 20 Yearshenry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:17 pmUh, no. If that were the case then every comatose person, every anesthetized person, would be fair game for organ harvesting and rape and Crom knows what.Henry, slavery is wrong because it treats people as commodities.
It is wrong to treat people as commodities because living people can feel.
Better, but you're still not there, B.
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Of course it doesn't. Moral relativism is and always has been a dead end.It all depends on YOU.
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The answer to why slavery (and murder and rape and theft and fraud and all the permutations and iterations of those) is wrong is in this thread, presented by me, to you. Find it. Read it. Understand it. (note I'm not askin' you to agree with it) Do that and we three can have a nice conversation about it.
Doublin' down on crazy talk is no rebuttal.
No need. Found, read, understood the first time. Sin is abuse of power and must be corrected. Here. Now. Nice theory. Half of all murders are never detected. In the developed world. Half of detected murders are never solved. Ain't justice grand. And sin is practiced on an industrial, national, global scale with no come back whatsoever. The sinners laugh all the way to the bank and die happy surrounded by their adoring loved ones, i.e. beneficiaries.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:17 pmUh, no. If that were the case then every comatose person, every anesthetized person, would be fair game for organ harvesting and rape and Crom knows what.Henry, slavery is wrong because it treats people as commodities.
It is wrong to treat people as commodities because living people can feel.
Better, but you're still not there, B.
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Of course it doesn't. Moral relativism is and always has been a dead end.It all depends on YOU.
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The answer to why slavery (and murder and rape and theft and fraud and all the permutations and iterations of those) is wrong is in this thread, presented by me, to you. Find it. Read it. Understand it. (note I'm not askin' you to agree with it) Do that and we three can have a nice conversation about it.
Apparently not cuz I never said diddly about sin.Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 3:51 pm No need. Found, read, understood the first time. Sin...
That's correct. I did. It is abuse of power. What else is your deist, just desserts, perhaps merciful, unloving God just about? The predation you describe is all abuse of power, what most believers call sin.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 5:14 pmApparently not cuz I never said diddly about sin.Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 3:51 pm No need. Found, read, understood the first time. Sin...
So you're not actually talkin' to me but instead to some fictional me you use as a jumpin' off point to rage against the God you believe in and hate cuz He won't do things as you like.
I trust that not only human persons have rights to exist and not be destroyed for any trivial reason. Morality applies to the way we treat others who are not as strong as ourselves.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:44 pmDoublin' down on crazy talk is no rebuttal.
As far as we know: only human beings are persons and morality only applies to persons.
Did you hunt down my in-thread reason for why slavery (and murder and rape and theft and fraud and all the permutations and iterations of those) is wrong?