For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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Er, I'm not calling you the narcissist.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:18 pmFair enough. I'll drop it, though it was Iambiguous's opening post and thread, not Maia's.attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 11:10 am OK, carry on (I thought this was Maia's thread, but it turns out its a narcissists)
Aren't you a self-obsessed, psychologically blind weirdo, like twice her age? Maybe leave the pretty blind woman alone.iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 4:10 am Again, I told you what triggers my interest in Maia above. I'm only acknowledging that were it not for my own existential "situation" "here and now" I'd have no problem at all in contacting her "for real" to see if a romantic relationship was even possible. But that's still la la land so I focus instead on the things we can pursue.
How preposterous. You know, if I do say so myself.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amYou have defined it time and again, this label of a category of people, based on their behavior. It's your category.iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:18 am The category Stooge?! No, here, a Stooge is only a projection of my own personal opinions/prejudices regarding the posts I read here. Nothing more.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 7:14 am So, I pointed to a post where Prom was doing that. As I said I actually didn't expect you to respond, but I was surprised to find you responded the way you did. It's obvious what his behavior is. What his intentions are is another fact.
Right, just as with me, you've got Prom all figured out.
Well, if it's one thing that seems applicable here, it's that we all read between the lines, uh, subjectively?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amHuh? You just make stuff up. Where did I say that? I have no idea what he motives were for what you call Stooge behavior in relation to Maia.
On the other hand, any folks online for any length of time know full well just how precarious it can be thinking you're on to someone in a place like this.
Whatever that means? Besides, as I note time and again, I suspect no one here could possibly be more fractured and fragmented in regard to identity and morality than "I" am.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amAh, good. It's felt precarious to you that you think I am out to reveal to others your true nature and that when we have problems with your behavior it's really about how your posts have challenged the beliefs we have. I didn't know you felt precarious about that. That changes how I react to it, since it never seems precarious and you repeat it so often.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 7:14 am Further, it never stops you from speculating on the motivations and intentions of people who you do call Stooges. But I wasn't asking for that speculation.
Again, it's always going to be a judgment call embedded in, say, particular moods and dispositions?
Simply unbelievable. Well, from my own, say, rooted existentially in dasein vantage point?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amNo, it wasn't necessary at all. Stooges, according to you, do certain things. He was doing those things. Unless you can show how his posts about Maia were really about Pagan Morality. Me and all the reasonable men and women are interested.
And, in fact, even in regard to our own exchanges, we can go post after post in which I react only to your argument. The Stooge bit doesn't come up. Then out of the blue [from my end] it's like you "lose it" and configure into what I do construe a Stooge to be.
I have no idea what this means pertaining to what I posted above.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amI believe this is how you experience it. I don't know, but it's so hard to imagine being conscious of all this evasion.
But, in my view, this still doesn't change the fact that, in regard to personal opinions of this sort, much of what I believe is derived existentially from dasein. And then the part where I acknowledsge further that, given new experiences, new relationships and access to ne information and knowledge, I might change my mind.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amI mean, look. You did take a clear stand, a few posts ago. Prom isn't a Stooge to you.
And so on indeed. But from my end, our own renditions of that are no less the embodiment of dasein.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amWe can drop it. I doubt you'll ever explain why suddenly only certain motivations for that behavior make one a Stooge, which was never in your description of what made a Stooge before - but you are sticking to your position, won't explain why now it must include specific motivations, won't explain why you would justify not confronting him because he is a serious wit, and so on.
That works for me. Over and out.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:38 amBut, if you are not going to elaborate more, that's fine. If you come with more oddities, well, I may respond to those. If you think you've responded completely, then it's over.
How about this...attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 11:10 am
OK, carry on (I thought this was Maia's thread, but it turns out its a narcissists)
Look, even though iwannaplato and I have complaints about each other, his posts here are actually substantive and substantial. Again, I respect both his intelligence and his commitment to philosophy in the way that he understands it.Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 1:06 pmAren't you a self-obsessed, psychologically blind weirdo, like twice her age? Maybe leave the pretty blind woman alone.iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 4:10 am Again, I told you what triggers my interest in Maia above. I'm only acknowledging that were it not for my own existential "situation" "here and now" I'd have no problem at all in contacting her "for real" to see if a romantic relationship was even possible. But that's still la la land so I focus instead on the things we can pursue.
I have no idea about Pagan morality to provide any opinion and although that is the thread title, I was genuinely interested in hearing about Maia's story re life as someone that (within this lifespan) has never experienced light...as I think all of us still are.iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:47 amHow about this...attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 11:10 am
OK, carry on (I thought this was Maia's thread, but it turns out its a narcissists)
Above, I have contributed a number of posts that pertain specifically to Pagan morality. Why don't you respond to them?
iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:18 am The category Stooge?! No, here, a Stooge is only a projection of my own personal opinions/prejudices regarding the posts I read here. Nothing more.
You have defined it time and again, this label of a category of people, based on their behavior. It's your category.
Oh, my God. You defined Stooge. What you meant when you called people Stooge.How preposterous. You know, if I do say so myself.
I don't define words like identity and morality here
If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 4:58 amiambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:18 am The category Stooge?! No, here, a Stooge is only a projection of my own personal opinions/prejudices regarding the posts I read here. Nothing more.You have defined it time and again, this label of a category of people, based on their behavior. It's your category.Oh, my God. You defined Stooge. What you meant when you called people Stooge.How preposterous. You know, if I do say so myself.
I don't define words like identity and morality here
I have no idea what you are going on about here. I sense, however, that you are this close to "losing it" again with me.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 4:58 amPerhaps this is all side effects of posting so much in more forums then I realize you post in. Stooge. Stooge. That's what I was talking about and we have been talking about for a number of posts and it's in the quotes there.
No problem. I'll carry on as long as the good Lord sees fit to keep me around.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 4:58 amAnyway. I'm dropping it. I can't even expect a kind of minimal understanding of what we are talking about. It's right there in your own post that I responded to and that you quoted.
Carry on.
And, with any luck, comforting and consoling you all the way to the grave. It's just that Pagans seem [to me] to be all over the board here. There seem to be as many different renditions of what happens to us after we die as there are Pagans themselves.If you believe that the physical universe is an embodiment of the Divine, and life is something to be celebrated, then your mythology, and your ethics, will flow from that.
Everything is sacred? Including all of this...?Each Pagan story, myth, and legend will reinforce the view that everything is sacred, but the stories are not necessarily the source of that insight.
Or, as some will tell you, it all comes down to this [to me] mystical Intrinsic Self that allows each Pagan to convince him or herself that in regard to the really, really important stuff, they "just know" what is good and bad, right and wrong.Rather the insight rests in our emotional response to the world around us, a sense of being in right relationship with it when we treat it as a Thou and not an It.
Well, if you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge, you must be must be hiding one side of it. You always say the same thing. It always seems to you the same thing: we are afraid of what you are saying and our criticisms are actually must a defensive pattern. I can see your fractured and fragments about say, abortion. Where you have expressed the torn between two ways of viewing it. But around your Stooge assessment, never. You may throw out a disclaimer at the end, but that's just a recognition of potential fallibility.iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:34 am If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.
No, in my view, you always seem intent on hearing the same thing. And that appears to revolve around whatever it takes to reinforce all the more your prejudices, your accusations, your "my way or the highway" assessment of me.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amWell, if you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge, you must be must be hiding one side of it. You always say the same thing.iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:34 am If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.
Look, it's not like I have just begun to pursue philosophical exchanges online. On the contrary, I've been doing it now going on 25 years. And from all of those accumulated experiences, I have come to certain conclusions regarding particular posters. It's called extrapolation.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amIt always seems to you the same thing: we are afraid of what you are saying and our criticisms are actually must a defensive pattern.
How about this: "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine"? We merely start out with different assumptions regarding what it means to be a Stooge.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amI can see your fractured and fragments about say, abortion. Where you have expressed the torn between two ways of viewing it. But around your Stooge assessment, never. You may throw out a disclaimer at the end, but that's just a recognition of potential fallibility.
On the other hand, perhaps you are, uh, overthinking this? I can only fall back on the assumption that a Stooge is someone who reacts to my truly grim philosophy of life...Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amAnd then you interpret it as my 'losing' it. No fractured and fragmented. Same old, same old. You have your dominant narrative connected to what you see as Stooge behavior. Unless you're hiding some other narrative.
Again, it is as though you expect me to pin down precisely what goes through my head when I react to others here. As though there is, what, a mathematical equation one can use to determine when others are or are not, in fact, objectively being Stooges?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amBut I have only what you write to go on. If you are actually fractured and fragmented when you call me or Phyllo a Stooge, what is your thinking about yourself and what is really going on when you don't think we are being Stooges.
Well, if you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge, you must be must be hiding one side of it. You always say the same thing. [/quote]iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:34 am If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.
oh, so you have expressed the opposing view that we are on to something when we criticize you behavior, then. Fractured and fragmented about an issue, for example, abortion, means that one really can see both sides, or so you have seemed to say. You can hear the antiabortion argument/logic/objective moral position and the pro choice arguments and find no real way to resolve which is correct. You have made this clear, many times, hence the being fractured and fragmented. No position seems clearly correct and you have no way to resolve it. And, note, you don't tell people what the more likely correct position his.No, in my view, you always seem intent on hearing the same thing. And that appears to revolve around whatever it takes to reinforce all the more your prejudices, your accusations, your "my way or the highway" assessment of me.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amIt always seems to you the same thing: we are afraid of what you are saying and our criticisms are actually must a defensive pattern.
Exactly, you are fairly confident in your Stooge assessment. This is exactly my point. You are not fractured and fragmented about this. You do state that you might be wrong. You are not claimed complete certainty. But you are hardly fractured and fragmented, which you recently said you were on this issue.Look, it's not like I have just begun to pursue philosophical exchanges online. On the contrary, I've been doing it now going on 25 years. And from all of those accumulated experiences, I have come to certain conclusions regarding particular posters. It's called extrapolation.
I accepted your sense of what a Stooge was. And by your explanation of what a Stooge is, one you have made many, many times, I fit that explanation. I have definitely focused on you, made you the issue. I don't think this has been negative on my part, but I definitely fit your criteria. No question. My point was that Prom fit them, in the first post that led to our exchange I pointed to one that met the criteria, and in relation to Maia - someone I haven't thought fit those criteria.How about this: "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine"? We merely start out with different assumptions regarding what it means to be a Stooge.
On the other hand, perhaps you are, uh, overthinking this? I can only fall back on the assumption that a Stooge is someone who reacts to my truly grim philosophy of life...Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amAnd then you interpret it as my 'losing' it. No fractured and fragmented. Same old, same old. You have your dominant narrative connected to what you see as Stooge behavior. Unless you're hiding some other narrative.
But I've never asserted that you were wrong about those things. My focus has been as you have said earlier in making your behavior the issue, rather than the topic of the thread. Often I focus on boht the thread topic and your behavior (or what I consider strange interpretations of other people's posts or articles).1] that my own existence is essentially meaningless and purposeless
2] that human morality in a No God world revolves largely around a fractured and fragmented assessment of right and wrong rooted existentially in dasein.
3] that oblivion is awaiting all of us when we die
...by insisting I'm the problem here for foolishly thinking like this.
Ah, ok. I don't really think Maia needs rescuing. And I don't have the means, if she does need it. And actually it was Prom I pointed at and I don't think he was trying to get her to fall into that hole.Some, in my view, "here and now" set out to clear it up so that others -- like Maia? -- don't tumble down into the hole with me.
No, no need for precisiion, but if you are fractured adn fragmented about these judgments, you would at least have as much experience of the other side, that we may be onto something.Again, it is as though you expect me to pin down precisely what goes through my head when I react to others here. As though there is, what, a mathematical equation one can use to determine when others are or are not, in fact, objectively being Stooges?
iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:34 am If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am Well, if you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge, you must be must be hiding one side of it. You always say the same thing.
No, in my view, you always seem intent on hearing the same thing. And that appears to revolve around whatever it takes to reinforce all the more your prejudices, your accusations, your "my way or the highway" assessment of me.
Yeah: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/back- ... lity/30639Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am oh, so you have expressed the opposing view that we are on to something when we criticize you behavior, then. Fractured and fragmented about an issue, for example, abortion, means that one really can see both sides, or so you have seemed to say.
By and large, yeah.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am You can hear the antiabortion argument/logic/objective moral position and the pro choice arguments and find no real way to resolve which is correct. You have made this clear, many times, hence the being fractured and fragmented. No position seems clearly correct and you have no way to resolve it. And, note, you don't tell people what the more likely correct position his.
Right, I'm taking a stand here. Call it that if you wish but it's not at all how I construe my own frame of mind. Click, of course.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am Now you've asserted that you feel fractured and fragmented when it comes to the judgments about Stooginess. But I see none of that. Yes, you admit that you might be wrong, but you take a stand. You are confident enough to label people Stooges.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amIt always seems to you the same thing: we are afraid of what you are saying and our criticisms are actually must a defensive pattern.
Look, it's not like I have just begun to pursue philosophical exchanges online. On the contrary, I've been doing it now going on 25 years. And from all of those accumulated experiences, I have come to certain conclusions regarding particular posters. It's called extrapolation.
No, if I was truly confident -- adamant? -- regarding my assessment of Stoogery why would I then note that, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information and knowledge, I could change my mind about it. Why would I note over and again, that own my understanding of it "here and now" is rooted existentially in dasein.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amExactly, you are fairly confident in your Stooge assessment. This is exactly my point.
Okay, you're convinced of this and I'm not. As for Prom, I don't think of him that way. And from time to time he has reacted to my groots in, uh, a mocking manner? But with him, I can never really be sure the extent to which it is tongue in cheek.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amYou are not fractured and fragmented about this. You do state that you might be wrong. You are not claimed complete certainty. But you are hardly fractured and fragmented, which you recently said you were on this issue.
How about this: "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine"? We merely start out with different assumptions regarding what it means to be a Stooge.
Okay, well, there you go.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amI accepted your sense of what a Stooge was. And by your explanation of what a Stooge is, one you have made many, many times, I fit that explanation. I have definitely focused on you, made you the issue. I don't think this has been negative on my part, but I definitely fit your criteria. No question.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amAnd then you interpret it as my 'losing' it. No fractured and fragmented. Same old, same old. You have your dominant narrative connected to what you see as Stooge behavior. Unless you're hiding some other narrative.
On the other hand, perhaps you are, uh, overthinking this? I can only fall back on the assumption that a Stooge is someone who reacts to my truly grim philosophy of life...
1] that my own existence is essentially meaningless and purposeless
2] that human morality in a No God world revolves largely around a fractured and fragmented assessment of right and wrong rooted existentially in dasein.
3] that oblivion is awaiting all of us when we die
...by insisting I'm the problem here for foolishly thinking like this.
That's how it unfolds over and again here.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amBut I've never asserted that you were wrong about those things. My focus has been as you have said earlier in making your behavior the issue, rather than the topic of the thread. Often I focus on boht the thread topic and your behavior (or what I consider strange interpretations of other people's posts or articles).
Some, in my view, "here and now" set out to clear it up so that others -- like Maia? -- don't tumble down into the hole with me.
Again, it is as though you expect me to pin down precisely what goes through my head when I react to others here. As though there is, what, a mathematical equation one can use to determine when others are or are not, in fact, objectively being Stooges?
The Prom issue is something that, in my view] is all tangled up in your head. It's not an issue for me. Any more than reacting to people as Stooges is something that I spend hours grappling with...philosophically?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amSomething leads to you assert you are fractured adn fragmented when you call people Stooges and you are fractured adn fragmented about the judgment. YOu can manage to talk about the one side, where you see our behavior and then you are pretty sure about our motivations. It's not exact and precise but it's pretty clear. But you have said you are fractured and fragmented on this issue of calling people Stooges: how do you experience the other side. It seems like only one side gets described here, over and over.
I am still on the 'OK, we reached a final impasse on the Prom issue'. That's what set this going.
iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:34 am If that's what you call a definition, so be it. But that still doesn't change the fact that in regard to my own understanding of Stooge, I am no less fractured and fragmented. I mean, it's not like others respond to my posts and I whip out my trusty Stooge calculator in order to determine with precision if they are, in fact, one.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am Well, if you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge, you must be must be hiding one side of it. You always say the same thing.
No, in my view, you always seem intent on hearing the same thing. And that appears to revolve around whatever it takes to reinforce all the more your prejudices, your accusations, your "my way or the highway" assessment of me.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am oh, so you have expressed the opposing view that we are on to something when we criticize you behavior, then. Fractured and fragmented about an issue, for example, abortion, means that one really can see both sides, or so you have seemed to say.
This thread is about Pagan Morality. In that thread I reacted to Prom's post where it seemed to me he fit your criteria of a Stooge.Yeah: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/back- ... lity/30639
Now, how is my assessment not applicable to you in regard to your own views on the morality of abortion?
All these years and you don't seem to realize I don't think there is an objectively correct position on that issue.Or go here: https://www.britannica.com/procon/abortion-debate
Sift through the arguments of those who disagree with you regarding abortion and note the counterarguments that you would make in order to settle it once and for all...in your favor.
Or, as you noted...
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 am Now you've asserted that you feel fractured and fragmented when it comes to the judgments about Stooginess. But I see none of that. Yes, you admit that you might be wrong, but you take a stand. You are confident enough to label people Stooges.
Right, you say you are fractured and fragmented about the Stooge issue. I just haven't seen any sign of this, while I do with, for example, the abortion issue. There many of your many posts indicate things thatf it with fractured adn fragmented.Right, I'm taking a stand here. Call it that if you wish but it's not at all how I construe my own frame of mind. Click, of course.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:03 amIt always seems to you the same thing: we are afraid of what you are saying and our criticisms are actually must a defensive pattern.
Look, it's not like I have just begun to pursue philosophical exchanges online. On the contrary, I've been doing it now going on 25 years. And from all of those accumulated experiences, I have come to certain conclusions regarding particular posters. It's called extrapolation.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amExactly, you are fairly confident in your Stooge assessment. This is exactly my point.
Again, there's a difference between realizing you could change your mind and being fractured and fragmented. It's certainly a very melodramatic way, in this specific context, to say you might change your mind some day about your assessments of other people being Stooges. You're really fractured and fragmented about that?No, if I was truly confident -- adamant? -- regarding my assessment of Stoogery why would I then note that, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information and knowledge, I could change my mind about it. Why would I note over and again, that own my understanding of it "here and now" is rooted existentially in dasein.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:20 amBut I've never asserted that you were wrong about those things. My focus has been as you have said earlier in making your behavior the issue, rather than the topic of the thread. Often I focus on boht the thread topic and your behavior (or what I consider strange interpretations of other people's posts or articles).
You just told me that my reason for focusing on you was because I wanted to show you were wrong about, for example, you position on objective morality. There was no basis for this. Instead of acknowledging that or providing some evidence that is why I focus on you, you just jump to something else.That's how it unfolds over and again here.
There's what someone thinks they mean in a particular post, then others respond to it, interpreting it in a different or conflicting way. Then back and forth they go getting more and more pissed off not just because others don't share their own convictions but because they are convinced in turn that others are completely missing the point of the post itself.
Some, in my view, "here and now" set out to clear it up so that others -- like Maia? -- don't tumble down into the hole with me.
But you have in this exchange. I don't think the way you grappled with it made much sense, but it takes two to tango.The Prom issue is something that, in my view] is all tangled up in your head. It's not an issue for me. Any more than reacting to people as Stooges is something that I spend hours grappling with...philosophically?