Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:59 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:44 pm
That's a good question...but it's complicated by your second question:

No, it's not complicated.

Yeah, it is: because if it's a defensive war, the killing may not be murder.

Killing in the war is murder. Did you forget Jesus's teaching?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:12 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:46 pm Jeez, but you're as autistic as age.

If you invite new life into the world: you're responsible for it.

When John and Sally make a baby: they're both on the hook. They, together, invite that life into the world: they're both responsible.

You are as slimy and dishonest as any man who continually frames things differently for himself, which you do all the time! This was a perfect example of you doing it. It was EASY for you to charge that the woman invited life into the world... whereas for you: 'the precautions failed'. A BIG difference, Henry... and you still can't see that you did it because you're so busy wanking on your ego, you've been depleting your brain cells.

you're age, aren't you...fess up...the hippy-drippy facade has slipped: you're institutionalized and whacked outta your skull on thorazine (or, mebbe, you're due for another keister-full)

or, mebbe, the spike proteins have infested your brain...tell me: has your heart enlarged yet?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm if it's a defensive war, the killing may not be murder.

Who determines that?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pmLacewing: Do you think God has told people to kill?

On occasion. But then, the Person who gave life in the first place has complete right to withdraw it, if He wishes.

God is a person? You really shrink God down to your limited ideas, don't you? It's like a combination of your failure/refusal to imagine beyond yourself, and your need to feel relevantly aligned with a god.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm Yes, man has legalized not only abortion-murder, but in some places, euthanasia-murder as well. It doesn't make it not-murder.

You said it was defined legally. Now you say legal isn't always right. I guess (for you) it depends on your argument.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm

Lacewing: You're ridiculous. Your fantasies and their resulting interpretations are too absurd to discuss in any realistic way.

No, you're cornered and don't want to admit it.

How could I possibly be cornered when I don't agree with any of your nonsense? I don't agree that abortion is murder, nor do I agree with how you described it. You're hysterically ridiculous... and you continually distort everything to fit/serve your extraordinarily limited god fantasy.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:57 pm you're age, aren't you...fess up...the hippy-drippy facade has slipped: you're institutionalized and whacked outta your skull on thorazine (or, mebbe, you're due for another keister-full)

or, mebbe, the spike proteins have infested your brain...tell me: has your heart enlarged yet?

Earlier...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm when I was an atheistic, nihilistic garbage person...

He's all cleaned up now, folks!

He now knows God, and it has made him what he is!

Let's all rush forward to get us some of that!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:23 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:57 pm you're age, aren't you...fess up...the hippy-drippy facade has slipped: you're institutionalized and whacked outta your skull on thorazine (or, mebbe, you're due for another keister-full)

or, mebbe, the spike proteins have infested your brain...tell me: has your heart enlarged yet?

Earlier...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm when I was an atheistic, nihilistic garbage person...

He's all cleaned up now, folks!

He now knows God, and it has made him what he is!

Let's all rush forward to get us some of that!

as I said up-thread: bein' principled doesn't make one nice (in your case: you're neither)

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:59 pm
No, it's not complicated.

Yeah, it is: because if it's a defensive war, the killing may not be murder.

Killing in the war is murder. Did you forget Jesus's teaching?

Not at all. Jesus said, "Love your enemies..." He did not say, "Let the enemies of your neighbour destroy him." So it's one thing for a Christian to take the brunt himself, and quite another for him to allow his neighbour to be undefended against an attacker. So it's reasonable to ask if extenuation exists in the case of an alien attacker harming your countrymen and countrywomen.

But it has no relevance to abortion, of course. No such extenuation exists in the case of murdering your own innocent child.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm if it's a defensive war, the killing may not be murder.

Who determines that?

God, as always.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pmLacewing: Do you think God has told people to kill?

On occasion. But then, the Person who gave life in the first place has complete right to withdraw it, if He wishes.

God is a person?

Of course. Where did you think the whole concept of "personhood" came from?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm Yes, man has legalized not only abortion-murder, but in some places, euthanasia-murder as well. It doesn't make it not-murder.

You said it was defined legally.

No, I said that it "has been." All that means is that the debate you were asking for has already been had by others, and they've come to some conclusions you could consult. It doesn't mean I'm asking you to think that everything proclaimed "legal" is also right. Some things that have been declared legal are quite evil: abortion comes to mind.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm

Lacewing: You're ridiculous. Your fantasies and their resulting interpretations are too absurd to discuss in any realistic way.

No, you're cornered and don't want to admit it.

How could I possibly be cornered when I don't agree with any of your nonsense?

Because being cornered rationally has nothing to do with whether or not you're ready to agree. It only means that insomuch as you wish to be a rational person, you would be cornered.

You may prefer to be irrational. That's your decision.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:33 pm
Yeah, it is: because if it's a defensive war, the killing may not be murder.

Killing in the war is murder. Did you forget Jesus's teaching?

Not at all. Jesus said, "Love your enemies..." He did not say, "Let the enemies of your neighbour destroy him." So it's one thing for a Christian to take the brunt himself, and quite another for him to allow his neighbour to be undefended against an attacker. So it's reasonable to ask if extenuation exists in the case of an alien attacker harming your countrymen and countrywomen.

But it has no relevance to abortion, of course. No such extenuation exists in the case of murdering your own innocent child.

Is this, killing your enemy, a part of his teaching? If He wanted to make an exception, killing your enemy, He would do it.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:38 pm
Killing in the war is murder. Did you forget Jesus's teaching?

Not at all. Jesus said, "Love your enemies..." He did not say, "Let the enemies of your neighbour destroy him." So it's one thing for a Christian to take the brunt himself, and quite another for him to allow his neighbour to be undefended against an attacker. So it's reasonable to ask if extenuation exists in the case of an alien attacker harming your countrymen and countrywomen.

But it has no relevance to abortion, of course. No such extenuation exists in the case of murdering your own innocent child.

Is this, killing your enemy, a part of his teaching? If He wanted to make an exception, killing your enemy, He would do it.

It says nothing about killing anyone, actually. It just says "Do not murder."

But I accept that while I have a right to "turn the other cheek," my own cheek, I have no right to "turn" yours; or to stand by and watch you get slaughtered by your enemy. So if you are in danger, it gets more complicated to say what my duty is. I think it's to do as much as I can to prevent you from being hurt by your enemy.

I'm pretty sure you think so, too.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:05 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:54 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:35 pm...I've always taken precautions...if those precautions failed...well...I woulda been on the hook.

It is what it is.

Have I misunderstood you? Would you not shoot someone who was in your house uninvited, refused to leave and helped themselves to your resources?

if you break in to my house at 3 am, yeah, I'll shoot you if necessary.

you made a choice: you might pay for that choice in the worst way.

The person, most likely has family that love that person and you will make them suffer for the rest of their lives.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:05 pmthat baby: he made no choice...he exists becuz of a choice I and his mother made.

he's supposed to be off'd becuz I was careless?

You've mention he has a SOUL right? Why not allow God to have that SOUL back for your careless mistake and re-pop it into a foetus where it could be given far more love, indeed a much better life.

Do you see the IRONY contained within the two different situations (of an Evangelist mindset?) - so FAITHLESS with God's LOVE.

The person, most likely has family that love that person and you will make them suffer for the rest of their lives.

No, the intruder made the choice to risk his life enterin' a stranger's home, at 3am, without permission.

The bad is entirely on him.

Also: I said, I'd shoot if neccessary, not first thing. I've been in this position in RL. What I did was give the three opportunity to leave, empty-handed. They did. If they hadn't I absolutely would have shot them. And that was when I was alone. Today: I have a 15 year old. If someone breaks in, and I have the choice of preservin' my kid's life or sparin' strangers the misery of livin' without their reckless, criminal brother or husband, they'll suffer.


You've mention he has a SOUL right? Why not allow God to have that SOUL back for your careless mistake and re-pop it into a foetus where it could be given far more love, indeed a much better life.

I don't believe it's my, or your, place, to take that life: it doesn't belong to me or you (or even God). It belongs to the person inside his mother.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:01 pm Because being cornered rationally has nothing to do with whether or not you're ready to agree. It only means that insomuch as you wish to be a rational person, you would be cornered.

You haven't demonstrated anything rational, so imagining that you're cornering anyone is absurd.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:16 pm

atto wrote: The person, most likely has family that love that person and you will make them suffer for the rest of their lives.

No, the intruder made the choice to risk his life enterin' a stranger's home, at 3am, without permission.

The bad is entirely on him.

Er, the love of his family don't count, since will be suffering for the rest of their lives. THAT is why God did say "Thou shalt not murder."

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:16 pmAlso: I said, I'd shoot if neccessary, not first thing. I've been in this position in RL. What I did was give the three opportunity to leave, empty-handed. They did. If they hadn't I absolutely would have shot them. And that was when I was alone. Today: I have a 15 year old. If someone breaks in, and I have the choice of preservin' my kid's life or sparin' strangers the misery of livin' without their reckless, criminal brother or husband, they'll suffer.

You do know 15 is under the legal limit right?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:16 pm

atto wrote:You've mention he has a SOUL right? Why not allow God to have that SOUL back for your careless mistake and re-pop it into a foetus where it could be given far more love, indeed a much better life.

I don't believe it's my, or your, place, to take that life: it doesn't belong to me or you (or even God). It belongs to the person inside his mother.

But you are NOT taking a life - the 'person' has a SOUL. That 'mother' may have been raped, what then.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:38 pm as I said up-thread: bein' principled doesn't make one nice

This isn't about being 'nice'.

Being principled doesn't make one intelligent, right, truthful, or mature... as you demonstrate.

Nor do principles mean anything of value if you're inconsistent and hypocritical in how you frame things for yourself vs. others... as you've just done in this thread.

Stop pretending like you have extraordinary principles and that other people don't.

Being principled doesn't mean anything if your principles are based on delusion.

Er, the love of his family don't count, since will be suffering for the rest of their lives. THAT is why God did say "Thou shalt not murder."

It wold matter to them, I reckon, as much as my family's love and sufferin' woulda mattered to them if I'd let those three guys kill me. It would matter to them, I reckon, as much as my love and sufferin' would matter to me if I didn't defend my kid and he was murdered by the intruder.

The lesson: don't endanger your life, don't risk bringin' grief to your family, breakin' into a stranger's house at 3am.


That 'mother' may have been raped, what then.

That's the fault of the person inside her?


But you are NOT taking a life - the 'person' has a SOUL.

The person is a soul, a soul melded to a body, the person's body. His life is his.