the limits of fascism

[henry quirk]

>Cuz it's slavery/theft. to take a man's resources without his sanction.

That speaks to the necessity of an opt-out and has nothing to do with socialism.

Since you've never actually offered a definition for socialism, er, Socialism I can't say if that's accurate.

What i just said applies to all systems of government and has "Nothing To Do With <Any Version Of> Socialism!"

Absolutely. But, we're not talkin' about all systems of gov, are we? We can, if you like.

[henry quirk]

What i just said applies to all systems of government and has "Nothing To Do With <Any Version Of> Socialism!"

yeah, but Harry wants to opt out of being governed.

He especially wants to opt out of being governed when he doesn't want to be held accountable for any of his actions.

Yep: done.

[henry quirk]

Yep. We're comin' to the end of this back forth.

Isn't that what your goal was all along when you compared voluntary participation in TV licensing to slavery?

If the "voluntary" part doesn't make it non-slavery, then you are a voluntary wage slave.

Define wage slave.

[Skepdick]

Define wage slave.

Voluntary participator in a commercial activity where one is paid for services rendered or value exchanged.

Specifically what makes it slavery is the voluntary part.... (inspired by you)

[Advocate]

[quote=Skepdick post_id=502243 time=1615736205 user_id=17350]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=502242 time=1615736170 user_id=472]
Define wage slave.
[/quote]
Voluntary participator in a commercial activity.
[/quote]

Voluntary my ass.

[henry quirk]

Define wage slave.

Voluntary worker.

So, any one who works is a wage slave?

What about self-employed folks like myself?

Are we wage slaves?

Me: I define it as someone stuck in a job, makin' only enough to cover basic expenses.

Here, minimal wage jobs fit the bill. Thing is: most folks work their way out of wage slavery thru promotions, experience, and education. Those that don't just ain't tryin'

As for that voluntary tv license: as I say it's hobson's choice. Slavery may be too strong a word but theft fits perfectly.

[Skepdick]

So, any one who works is a wage slave?

What about self-employed folks like myself?

Are we wage slaves?

You are getting paid. You are participating in the exchange voluntarily.

Slave.

As for that voluntary tv license: as I say it's hobson's choice. Slavery may be too strong a word but theft fits perfectly.

Do any of your customers (those who foot the bill) get to have a say in how you do your job, you thieving bastard?

[henry quirk]

Do any of your customers (those who foot the bill) get to have a say in how you do your job, you thieving bastard?

Nope. They get product. Not a one has a say in means & methods.

[Skepdick]

Nope. They get product. Not a one has a say in means & methods.

So they pay you (like brits bay for a TV license). They get the product (like the brits get BBC). And they don't have a say in the means&methods (like the brits don't have a say in the running of the BBC).

You call the BBC thievery, but what you are doing isn't thievery because... ?

[henry quirk]

Nope. They get product. Not a one has a say in means & methods.

So they pay you (like brits bay for a TV license). They get the product (like the brits get BBC). And they don't have a say in the means&methods (like the brits don't have a say in the running of the BBC).

You call the BBC thievery, but what you are doing isn't thievery because... ?

The obvious difference: If a potential customer doesn't like my quote or my non-disclosure of means and method, they can go elsewhere. There are other researchers to do business with. With the BBC, as Till sez, if you own a tv you pay the BBC. You can't go elsewhere cuz there is no elsewhere. The gov calls the shots, holds the cards, has the Big Stick.

It's the worst kind of monopoly: artificial and legislatively enforced.

If it's not slavery (that word may be too strong in context), it's certainly theft.

[Skepdick]

The obvious difference: If a potential customer doesn't like my quote or my non-disclosure of means and method, they can go elsewhere. There are other researchers to do business with.

Like I can watch Netflix and YouTube or any online streaming service instead of the BBC?

With the BBC, as Till sez, if you own a tv you pay the BBC. You can't go elsewhere cuz there is no elsewhere. The gov calls the shots, holds the cards, has the Big Stick.

Then don't buy a TV? Buy a big screen without a tuner. Buy a projector. Disconnect yourself from the BBC.

It's the worst kind of monopoly: artificial and legislatively enforced.

How is this monopoly any different to the contractual obligations you enforce upon your customers once they benefit from your product?

If it's not slavery (that word may be too strong in context), it's certainly theft.

Yeah. Theft. You promised me X. You took my money. Then you delivered Y.

I had no fucking say in the matter. Thief.

[Immanuel Can]

Have a long hard think, Immanuel Can; when did you start using the term "cancel culture"?

Maybe I picked it up from Andrew Cuomo.

Why did you wait until Cuomo was accused of being a sexual predator to agree with him?

I didn't. I was way more aware of it than he was willing to admit he was, long before he was. But it sure is ironic that he suddenly believes in it now. He's now realized that Socialism is cannibalism; they always eat all their own "children."

[Immanuel Can]

Well, no wonder.

Venezuela? Cuba? I'd just love to know what "particulars" you have from those examples to show the wonders of Socialism. Please, do go on...

Doesn't look like you need me for any of this.

Doesn't look like you can do it.

And I knew that. If you'd ever visited Cuba or Venezuela, you'd know. That you don't, but still advocate Socialism, is clear testimony you are ideologically possessed...nothing from the real world will stop a Socialist from believing in Socialism. There is no human rights disaster so grim, no economic collapse so utter, and no pile of bodies, be it ever so high, that will stop a Socialist from pushing for the next human rights disaster, the next economic debacle and more dead bodies.

[Skepdick]

Doesn't look like you can do it.

And I knew that. If you'd ever visited Cuba or Venezuela, you'd know. That you don't, but still advocate Socialism, is clear testimony you are ideologically possessed...nothing from the real world will stop a Socialist from believing in Socialism. There is no human rights disaster so grim, no economic collapse so utter, and no pile of bodies, be it ever so high, that will stop a Socialist from pushing for the next human rights disaster, the next economic debacle and more dead bodies.

I was born and grew up in a Socialist country. Lost family members, property and much wealth to the regime. Understood the pathologies in the system. Stood in bread and petrol lines and collected my food stamps. Studied on candle light because there was no electricity at -20 temperatures.

So I guess I do know?

Which means that one of our responses is measured and nuanced and isn't just a knee-jerk response to a word.

The other is an ideological zealot that has never actually experienced socialism so he cries wolf whenever the word is used in any context. I think that's you

[Advocate]

[quote=Skepdick post_id=502280 time=1615740287 user_id=17350]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=502279 time=1615740199 user_id=9431]
Doesn't look like you can do it.

And I knew that. If you'd ever visited Cuba or Venezuela, you'd know. That you don't, but still advocate Socialism, is clear testimony you are ideologically possessed...nothing from the real world will stop a Socialist from believing in Socialism. There is no human rights disaster so grim, no economic collapse so utter, and no pile of bodies, be it ever so high, that will stop a Socialist from pushing for the next human rights disaster, the next economic debacle and more dead bodies.
[/quote]
I was born and grew up in a Socialist country. Lost family members, property and much wealth to the regime. Understood the pathologies in the system. Stood in bread lines and collected my food stamps. So I guess I do know? :)

Which means that one of our responses is measured and nuanced and isn't just a knee-jerk response to a word.

The other is an ideological zealot that has never actually experienced socialism so he cries wolf whenever the word is used in any context. I think that's you ;)
[/quote]

I've had and/or seen all the same experiences under capitalism.