The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

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attofishpi
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by attofishpi »

VVilliam wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:22 am

Image
If I understand the diagram, it represents the piece of the universe that we can observe.

(It is also saying that stars appeared before galaxies?)

Image

The universe is not "outside" the creator mind. The creator mind is not "outside" the universe.
I have no evidence gained through my gnosis that God created the entire universe, perhaps there is a separate God for each galaxy!
All I am certain of, is there is a 3rd party intelligence omnipotent to our perceivable reality, hence I am working my analysis backwards from there.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:24 pm I have no evidence gained through my gnosis that God created the entire universe, perhaps there is a separate God for each galaxy!
All I am certain of, is there is a 3rd party intelligence omnipotent to our perceivable reality, hence I am working my analysis backwards from there.
When you claim your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent, then it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.

Otherwise, you should not claim your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent but merely potent to the extent [limits] you attribute its power.

If your 3rd-party-intelligence is merely potent, then one-upper theists [especially Muslims -some] who claim their God is omnipotent, can insist their omnipotent God will dominate and force your merely potent inferior 3rd-party-intelligence to eat shit or other derogatory acts.

You can easily avoid the above by claiming your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent; it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:05 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:24 pm I have no evidence gained through my gnosis that God created the entire universe, perhaps there is a separate God for each galaxy!
All I am certain of, is there is a 3rd party intelligence omnipotent to our perceivable reality, hence I am working my analysis backwards from there.
When you claim your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent, then it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.
The red bit (underlined) pay attention to. Omnipotent to what we perceive, our reality that does not require that this 3rd party intelligence is omnipotent to the entire universe, indeed even to the extent of creating it!
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:13 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:05 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:24 pm I have no evidence gained through my gnosis that God created the entire universe, perhaps there is a separate God for each galaxy!
All I am certain of, is there is a 3rd party intelligence omnipotent to our perceivable reality, hence I am working my analysis backwards from there.
When you claim your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent, then it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.
The red bit (underlined) pay attention to. Omnipotent to what we perceive, our reality that does not require that this 3rd party intelligence is omnipotent to the entire universe, indeed even to the extent of creating it!
Note 'omnipotent' = unlimited power.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent

Re 'Perceive' is omniscient -possessed of universal or complete knowledge
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omniscient

I edited the earlier post to add:
If your 3rd-party-intelligence is merely potent, then one-upper theists [especially Muslims -some] who claim their God is omnipotent, can insist their omnipotent God will dominate and force your merely potent inferior 3rd-party-intelligence to eat shit or other derogatory acts.

You can easily avoid the above by claiming your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent; it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:13 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:05 am
When you claim your 3rd-party-intelligence is omnipotent, then it is all-powerful to create the entire universe, i.e. whatever and anything that is conceivable and possible inferred from direct evidence.
The red bit (underlined) pay attention to. Omnipotent to what we perceive, our reality that does not require that this 3rd party intelligence is omnipotent to the entire universe, indeed even to the extent of creating it!
Note 'omnipotent' = unlimited power.
Yes, God has unlimited power over our entire perception of reality, FROM EXPERIENCE. I do not know if God is omnipotent beyond our perceivable reality.
Do you know anything that is beyond our perceivable reality, even using tech such as infra-red? If you do, then let me know.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:30 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:13 am

The red bit (underlined) pay attention to. Omnipotent to what we perceive, our reality that does not require that this 3rd party intelligence is omnipotent to the entire universe, indeed even to the extent of creating it!
Note 'omnipotent' = unlimited power.
Yes, God has unlimited power over our entire perception of reality, FROM EXPERIENCE. I do not know if God is omnipotent beyond our perceivable reality.
Do you know anything that is beyond our perceivable reality, even using tech such as infra-red? If you do, then let me know.
There is some mixed up in your case.
'Beyond perceivable reality' is odd.

1. What humans have empirical evidence right now is the 'perceived' reality.
2. However, from what is empirical perceived reality, we can infer there is the perceivable reality [whatever there is] that is empirically possible, i.e. subject to confirmation with empirical evidences.

What theists claim for the omnipotent God is it has unlimited power to be responsible for 1- perceived & 2- perceivable above, not non-possibilities nor non-perceivable like a square-circle which is a contradiction.

While claiming and believing is so easy,
the question is whether the omni-potent God or potent 3rd party intelligence is itself perceivable.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:42 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:30 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:22 am
Note 'omnipotent' = unlimited power.
Yes, God has unlimited power over our entire perception of reality, FROM EXPERIENCE. I do not know if God is omnipotent beyond our perceivable reality.
Do you know anything that is beyond our perceivable reality, even using tech such as infra-red? If you do, then let me know.
There is some mixed up in your case.
'Beyond perceivable reality' is odd.

1. What humans have empirical evidence right now is the 'perceived' reality.
2. However, from what is empirical perceived reality, we can infer there is the perceivable reality [whatever there is] that is empirically possible, i.e. subject to confirmation with empirical evidences.
Sure.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:42 amWhat theists claim for the omnipotent God is it has unlimited power to be responsible for 1- perceived & 2- perceivable above, not non-possibilities nor non-perceivable like a square-circle which is a contradiction.
Don't throw what others (theists) believe into our little debate. I am extremely busy atm.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:45 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:42 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:30 am

Yes, God has unlimited power over our entire perception of reality, FROM EXPERIENCE. I do not know if God is omnipotent beyond our perceivable reality.
Do you know anything that is beyond our perceivable reality, even using tech such as infra-red? If you do, then let me know.
There is some mixed up in your case.
'Beyond perceivable reality' is odd.

1. What humans have empirical evidence right now is the 'perceived' reality.
2. However, from what is empirical perceived reality, we can infer there is the perceivable reality [whatever there is] that is empirically possible, i.e. subject to confirmation with empirical evidences.
Sure.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:42 amWhat theists claim for the omnipotent God is it has unlimited power to be responsible for 1- perceived & 2- perceivable above, not non-possibilities nor non-perceivable like a square-circle which is a contradiction.
Don't throw what others (theists) believe into our little debate. I am extremely busy atm.
Then don't use the term 'omnipotent' at all which is normally exclusive for theists only.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:17 am https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... l-argument:

Q: Does this cosmology require a supernatural/unnatural/non-physical cause?
The Kalam or any argument for God need to be dealt within a meta- and total basis.

Kant claim it is impossible to prove the existence of God as real in ALL arguments for God which are covered every sphere, i.e.
1. Physical-Theological Arguments - cover the whole empirical world of experience,
2. Cosmological Argument - cover the WHOLE Universe.
3. Ontological Argument - cover the WHOLE of Existence, all existence, i.e. God's existence.

All the above argument for God have a generic structure, they are not sound and infested with fallacies.
The Physical-Theo and Cosmological Arguments has the ontological deceptively hidden within.

In the article;
Craig modified Ghazali's P1 as:
1.. If the universe began to exist, then the universe has a cause of its beginning.
2. The universe [a being] began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning
....................................................................
4. which is An Uncaused First Cause as
5. A Personal Being with Freedom of the Will -a Personal Creator

P1.. If the universe began to exist, then the universe has a cause of its beginning.
Craig insisted P1 is self-evident.
This is within Kant's Physical-Theological Argument
But re Hume, it is not.
Hume argued causation is man-made [subjective], so, it follows Craig conclusion is also man-made.

2. The universe [a being] began to exist.
Craig proposed to justify the above with 2 philosophical arguments and 2 scientific arguments. i.e.
1. Philosophical Argument - Ghazali
1a First Philosophical Arg -no actual infinite No.
1b Second Philosophical Arg – no series actual infinite
2. Scientific Confirmation
2a First Scientific Confirmation – Big Bang
......Sub-Atomic-Physics
2b Second Scientific Confirm – 2nd Law Thermodynamics

1. Philosophical Argument - Ghazali
There are two senses of reality,
1. Philosophical Realism sense -[objective mind-independent reality]
2. ANTI-Philosophical_Realism -[objective human related FSK reality]

I have proven 1 is grounded on an illusion.
Why Philosophical Realism is Illusory
viewtopic.php?t=40167
Thus whatever is claimed to be finite in the ultimate sense is illusory.
So, P2a and P2b is false.

2. Scientific Confirmation
There are two views to Science, i.e.
1. Scientific Realism [objective mind-independent reality]
2. Scientific Anti-Realism [objective human related FSK reality]

Scientific Realism is conditioned upon Philosophical Realism which as a above is grounded on an illusion.
Thus Craig's Scientific Confirmations are totally useless.

So Craigs' Cosmological Argument leading from the empirical and experience re Physical-theological is false.

4. which is An Uncaused First Cause as
5. A Personal Being with Freedom of the Will -a Personal Creator

Here the argument take a big leap from the empirical to the transcendent [ontological] which is fallacious. Per ChatGpt [with reservations]
ChatGpt wrote:In the context of the cosmological argument, which often involves reasoning from contingent or empirical phenomena to a necessary or transcendent cause (God), Kant argued that there is a fallacy in assuming that the concepts we apply to the empirical world can be seamlessly extended to the transcendent realm.

The fallacy involved here is not precisely named by Kant, but it is associated with what he considered to be a confusion or misuse of concepts in the transition from the empirical to the transcendent. It's not specifically an equivocation, where a term is used with multiple meanings, but rather a kind of error in trying to apply categories and concepts derived from our experience of the world to something beyond that experience.

Kant's main point was that our cognitive faculties, which are adapted to making sense of the empirical world, cannot legitimately be extended to make claims about transcendent realities. In other words, he believed that certain arguments for God's existence were flawed because they incorrectly applied empirical concepts beyond their legitimate scope.

The fallacy in question, it is associated with his broader critique of attempting to reason about transcendent realities based on empirical concepts.
Here's Bard's [with reservation] Version:
Bard wrote:You are correct in stating that Kant argued against the cosmological argument for God's existence and that it is fallacious to move from the empirical to the transcendent. However, the specific fallacy he identified is not equivocation but rather the fallacy of four terms.

Here's a breakdown:

1. Kant's Argument:
Kant argued that the cosmological argument commits the fallacy of four terms because it uses different meanings for the same terms in its premises and conclusion. Here's the typical format of the cosmological argument:

Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.
Conclusion: Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Kant's criticism focuses on the term "cause." In premise 1, "cause" refers to an observable phenomenon within our experience of the world. We can see and understand how things cause other things in the physical world. However, in the conclusion, "cause" refers to the transcendent God, which is beyond our experience and understanding. This shift in meaning is what makes the argument fallacious.

2. Fallacy of Four Terms:

The fallacy of four terms occurs when an argument uses a term in two different senses in its premises and conclusion. This creates a hidden ambiguity that makes the argument seem valid when it is not. In the cosmological argument, the term "cause" is used in two different senses:

Empirical sense: A cause within the natural world that can be observed and understood.
Transcendental sense: The transcendent God who is beyond our experience and understanding.
This ambiguity allows the argument to appear valid while actually being flawed.

3. Equivocation:
While not the specific fallacy identified by Kant, equivocation can also be relevant to the cosmological argument. Equivocation occurs when a word or phrase is used with two different, unrelated meanings in the same argument. This can create confusion and mislead the audience.

In the cosmological argument, the term "beginning to exist" could potentially be interpreted in equivocal ways. For example, one might interpret it as referring to the Big Bang, while another might interpret it as referring to the creation of the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing). This difference in interpretation could lead to different conclusions about the argument's validity.

4. Conclusion:
Kant's argument against the cosmological argument is significant because it challenges the validity of one of the traditional arguments for God's existence. While the fallacy of four terms is the specific logical flaw he identified, equivocation can also be relevant in understanding the argument's weaknesses.
The debate surrounding the cosmological argument and Kant's critiques continues to be a central topic in philosophy and theology.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by VVilliam »

I don't think the question of omnipotence is particularly relative to the overall argument. Clearly, the part of the universe which we perceive currently, is almighty enough as is.
We can accept that an uncaused creator-mind may well be omnipotent, yet - for this universe, limited its power for the purpose of creating said universe.
Essentially, an uncaused cause, would be omnipotent compared to any other creator-minds it may create as part of the overall process.

Thus, even if there is a creator-mind for every galaxy, these would all be aspects of the uncaused creator-mind, rather than separate (competing) creator-minds and would likely understand that of themselves, unlike human creator-minds who are deep enough within one such galaxy as to be able to experience having no memory of any prior/other experience and as a result are unable to easily trace their connection back to the uncaused cause - to the source of their mindfulness.

This is essentially a fragmentation of Mind into minds, something also evident in the way the universe sprang from the (one) singularity and fragmented into the many - each of which (at whatever point in said process happening) altogether make up "the universe".
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Skepdick »

Atla wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:50 am
Skepdick wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:22 am
Atla wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:37 am Again an illogical, self-refuting argument. If the creator mind is allowed to not begin / not have a beginning, then so can the universe be allowed. Same thing.
Don't you get dizzy going round and round in circle, re-defining the bounadries of "the universe" to fit your reasoning?

universe.jpg
god-universe.jpg
I didn't, idiot
You did, keep doing it and will likely continue doing it..

We already established you think the universe spans beyond the Big Bang/singularity.

Idiot.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Atla »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:11 am You did, keep doing it and will likely continue doing it..
Wrong, don't accuse others of the kind of sophistries you tend to employ.
We already established you think the universe spans beyond the Big Bang/singularity.
Wrong, I think it probably doesn't have a beyond the way you imagine it, but it could. I examine various forms of both possibilities.
Idiot.
Wrong, you are

Your earlier claim was also wrong, as I went by the standard Kalam definition here, which others understood, you didn't. Context, you know.

If we take a step back, your overall objection is also wrong as it's pretty common in cosmology to see the Big Bang as a transition from an unknown state to a known state. And then sometimes try to investigate beyond.

Get a clue
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
atto wrote:
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:42 amWhat theists claim for the omnipotent God is it has unlimited power to be responsible for 1- perceived & 2- perceivable above, not non-possibilities nor non-perceivable like a square-circle which is a contradiction.
Don't throw what others (theists) believe into our little debate. I am extremely busy atm.
Then don't use the term 'omnipotent' at all which is normally exclusive for theists only.
Don't dictate when and how the term omnipotent can be used.

I'll use the term "omnipotent" where i see it fits from my experience of God.

Again, provide an example of something that is NOT part of perceivable reality (not part of what I am stating God to be omnipotent over)
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:16 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
atto wrote:
Don't throw what others (theists) believe into our little debate. I am extremely busy atm.
Then don't use the term 'omnipotent' at all which is normally exclusive for theists only.
Don't dictate when and how the term omnipotent can be used.

I'll use the term "omnipotent" where i see it fits from my experience of God.

Again, provide an example of something that is NOT part of perceivable reality (not part of what I am stating God to be omnipotent over)
That is like insisting the circle is square or square is circular.

Sure you can insist on using the term 'omnipotent' but if without qualifications, that [in this case within a philosophical discussion] would be in-general a sign of semantics stupidity.
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Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:09 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:16 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Then don't use the term 'omnipotent' at all which is normally exclusive for theists only.
Don't dictate when and how the term omnipotent can be used.

I'll use the term "omnipotent" where i see it fits from my experience of God.

Again, provide an example of something that is NOT part of perceivable reality (not part of what I am stating God to be omnipotent over)
That is like insisting the circle is square or square is circular.
Only for people with mash potatoes for brains.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:09 amSure you can insist on using the term 'omnipotent' but if without qualifications, that [in this case within a philosophical discussion] would be in-general a sign of semantics stupidity.
I've made the qualifier need I repeat it yet again: there is a 3rd party intelligence omnipotent to our perceivable reality
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