Philosophy Now Forum

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:31 am Definition No. 1 is: "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate".
And an infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.
And an infinite past with a beginning is limitless in extent and size.
And an infinite past with a beginning is impossible to measure or calculate.
So, you're wrong AND you don't understand English too good.
EB

Definition 1 contains definition 2, but the reverse isn't true (which most people are aware of but you aren't). Still flies miles over your head.

You also have cherry-picked a definition from the list I provided that you could twist to your false claim the most. But you have to look at the whole list, most of them are primary definitions from various deictionaries.

Pathetic.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:39 am

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:31 am Definition No. 1 is: "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate".
And an infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.
And an infinite past with a beginning is limitless in extent and size.
And an infinite past with a beginning is impossible to measure or calculate.

Definition 1 contains definition 2, but the reverse isn't true (which most people are aware of but you aren't). Still flies miles over your head. You also have cherry-picked a definition from the list I provided that you could twist to your false claim the most. But you have to look at the whole list, most of them are primary definitions from various deictionaries. Pathetic.

I didn't cherry-picked. I used in my previous post each one of the definitions you provided:

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:45 am Each one of those is compatible with an infinite past with a beginning.

• An infinite past with a beginning is limitless or endless in size and impossible to measure or calculate.
  An infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.
  An infinite past with a beginning is without limits in its duration.
  An infinite past with a beginning is unlimited or unmeasurable in duration of time.
  An infinite past with a beginning has no boundaries or limits as o its duration.

You can check by yourself. Here are your definitions again...

infinite
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
extending indefinitely : endless
without limits; extremely large or great
unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.
Having no boundaries or limits; impossible to measure or calculate.
Infinite is defined as endless or limitless.
having no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude

EB

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:12 am

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:39 am

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:31 am Definition No. 1 is: "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate".
And an infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.
And an infinite past with a beginning is limitless in extent and size.
And an infinite past with a beginning is impossible to measure or calculate.

Definition 1 contains definition 2, but the reverse isn't true (which most people are aware of but you aren't). Still flies miles over your head. You also have cherry-picked a definition from the list I provided that you could twist to your false claim the most. But you have to look at the whole list, most of them are primary definitions from various deictionaries. Pathetic.

I didn't cherry-picked. I used in my previous post each one of the definitions you provided:

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:45 am Each one of those is compatible with an infinite past with a beginning.

• An infinite past with a beginning is limitless or endless in size and impossible to measure or calculate.
  An infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.
  An infinite past with a beginning is without limits in its duration.
  An infinite past with a beginning is unlimited or unmeasurable in duration of time.
  An infinite past with a beginning has no boundaries or limits as o its duration.

You can check by yourself. Here are your definitions again...

infinite
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
extending indefinitely : endless
without limits; extremely large or great
unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.
Having no boundaries or limits; impossible to measure or calculate.
Infinite is defined as endless or limitless.
having no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude

EB

Q.E.D Philosophy

Sterile word-play.

Sterile. Adjective. lacking in imagination, creativity, or excitement; uninspiring or unproductive

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:12 amAn infinite past with a beginning is limitless or endless in size and impossible to measure or calculate.

No, in the primary sense, an infinite past with a beginning is not limitless or endless in size, because it has a beginning which is an end/limit. That's a contradiction of terms.

Only in the secondary sense is it limitless or endless in size, when we only look at what happens after the beginning, which isn't the whole picture.

An infinite past with a beginning is extending indefinitely.

No, in the primary sense, an infinite past with a beginning doesn't extend indefinitely, because it has a beginning. That's a contradiction of terms.

Only in the secondary sense does it extend indefinitely.

An infinite past with a beginning is without limits in its duration.

No, in the primary sense, an infinite past with a beginning isn't without limits in its duration, because it has a beginning. That's a contradiction of terms.

Only in the secondary sense is it without limits in its duration.

An infinite past with a beginning is unlimited or unmeasurable in duration of time.

Not unlimited, if it has a beginning. That's a contradiction of terms.

Only unlimited in the secondary sense, when we only look at what happens after the beginning.

An infinite past with a beginning has no boundaries or limits as o its duration.

Same, its duration only has no boundaries or limits if we only look at what happens after the beginning, so secondary sense.

But as we by now know, you lack the intellectual honesty to admit your error, and will keep misusing English words.

I still don't know what people think would be logically impossible about the idea of an infinite past with a beginning.
Appart from being inconceivable for them.
Nothing very new here, though.
EB

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:26 pm I still don't know what people think would be logically impossible about the idea of an infinite past with a beginning.
Appart from being inconceivable for them.
Nothing very new here, though.
EB

Well maybe you shouldn't throw around concepts like "infinite", "logical", "beginning", "conceivable" you have no understanding of.

Anyone can arrange random words in a random order, rip them of all meaning and claim that it's logical.

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:26 pm I still don't know what people think would be logically impossible about the idea of an infinite past with a beginning.
Appart from being inconceivable for them.
Nothing very new here, though.
EB

The problem with every single one of your arguments is the error of all Cartesian dualism.

You conceptualise the universe's timeline as "infinite past with a beginning", but you fail to conceptualise yourself on that very same timeline.

So lets go along with your notion of infinity between 0 and 1. Where on the timeline between 0 and 1 do you place "yourself" right now? At 1 ? Great.

10 seconds later. Where on the timeline do you place "yourself" now? At 1 again?
100 years later (after your death) where on the timeline do you place "yourself"?

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:26 pm inconceivable for them

I did some googling and found this gem on another forum. (Who is bad at conceiving things here?)

Speakpigeon wrote:Please also note that while I can imagine an infinite past with a beginning, I can't imagine the more conventional notion of an infinite past without a beginning, or indeed the conventional notion of an infinite future without an end. I also don't believe anyone could.

Also, apparently you can't imagine something that's logically impossible, but you can imagine something that's logically impossible twice over.

(Btw I strongly suspect that someone can't imagine infinite time with a beginning without being able to imagine infinite time without a beginning first. I don't think you were talking about time at all, you were merely talking about some mathematical numberline interval written onto a piece of paper.)

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:26 pm I still don't know what people think would be logically impossible about the idea of an infinite past with a beginning.
Appart from being inconceivable for them.
Nothing very new here, though.
EB

Well maybe you shouldn't throw around concepts like "infinite", "logical", "beginning", "conceivable" you have no understanding of.

???
I don't have no difficulty understanding these notions.
And if ever I was wrong, I still haven't been shown wrong.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm Anyone can arrange random words in a random order, rip them of all meaning and claim that it's logical.

???
An infinite past with a beginning...
Random order? Rip them appart?
Whoa. You're seriously angry, man. I would advise a rest or seeking medical advice.
EB

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:24 pm I don't have no difficulty understanding these notions.
And if ever I was wrong, I still haven't been shown wrong.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm Anyone can arrange random words in a random order, rip them of all meaning and claim that it's logical.

???
An infinite past with a beginning...
Random order? Rip them appart?
Whoa. You're seriously angry, man. I would advise a rest or seeking medical advice.
EB

Frenchie, stop playing the stupid philosophical games and place the concepts of "Yesterday", "Today" and "Tomorrow" on your (0,1) infinite timeline.
Assign them values for us, please. The fact that you can't do that is you being show to be wrong.

Frustration (with idiots) is a perfectly normal human response.

And you are a bit of an idiot.

Logik wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:32 pm The problem with every single one of your arguments is the error of all Cartesian dualism. You conceptualise the universe's timeline as "infinite past with a beginning", but you fail to conceptualise yourself on that very same timeline. So lets go along with your notion of infinity between 0 and 1. Where on the timeline between 0 and 1 do you place "yourself" right now? At 1 ? Great. 10 seconds later. Where on the timeline do you place "yourself" now? At 1 again? 100 years later (after your death) where on the timeline do you place "yourself"?

Lots of words for a simplistic idea...
Without going in the details, it makes Reals in [0,1] a possible model. But there is an infinity of possible models. For example, an infinite past with two beginnings is an infinite past with a beginning. An infinite past with an infinity of beginnings is an infinite past with a beginning.
Also, you should be aware that this [0,1] is not countable, yet this is what you are asking me to do. In fact, all infinities are countable, but not the way you suggest I try to go about it.
I said an infinite past with a beginning is a logical possibility. I didn't claim to know what specific kind of infinity it would be. To answer your question, I would need to know precisely what kind of infinity it would be.
EB

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Logik wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:32 pm The problem with every single one of your arguments is the error of all Cartesian dualism. You conceptualise the universe's timeline as "infinite past with a beginning", but you fail to conceptualise yourself on that very same timeline. So lets go along with your notion of infinity between 0 and 1. Where on the timeline between 0 and 1 do you place "yourself" right now? At 1 ? Great. 10 seconds later. Where on the timeline do you place "yourself" now? At 1 again? 100 years later (after your death) where on the timeline do you place "yourself"?

Lots of words for a simplistic idea...
Without going in the details, it makes Reals in [0,1] a possible model. But there is an infinity of possible models. For example, an infinite past with two beginnings is an infinite past with a beginning. An infinite past with an infinity of beginnings is an infinite past with a beginning.
Also, you should be aware that this [0,1] is not countable, yet this is what you are asking me to do. In fact, all infinities are countable, but not the way you suggest I try to go about it.
I said an infinite past with a beginning is a logical possibility. I didn't claim to know what specific kind of infinity it would be. To answer your question, I would need to know precisely what kind of infinity it would be.
EB

See above.

Assign numerical values to the concepts of "yesterday", "today" and "tomorrow" on your infiite-reals (0,1) model

You don't need to know what infinity it is. Do it for both: countable and uncountable infinity.

(I am literally giving you a free pass here, because YOU insisted on the Reals which are uncountable: http://mathonline.wikidot.com/the-set-o ... ncountable but then you keep second-guessing whether they are countable or uncountable)

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:08 am

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:26 pm inconceivable for them

I did some googling and found this gem on another forum. (Who is bad at conceiving things here?)

Speakpigeon wrote:Please also note that while I can imagine an infinite past with a beginning, I can't imagine the more conventional notion of an infinite past without a beginning, or indeed the conventional notion of an infinite future without an end. I also don't believe anyone could.

Also, apparently you can't imagine something that's logically impossible, but you can imagine something that's logically impossible twice over.
(Btw I strongly suspect that someone can't imagine infinite time with a beginning without being able to imagine infinite time without a beginning first. I don't think you were talking about time at all, you were merely talking about some mathematical numberline interval written onto a piece of paper.)

Yeah, when I imagine a landscape, guess what, I have to confess it's only some sketchy picture that's actually not a landscape.
My bad.
I can imagine, literally, a landscape. I can literally imagine an infinite past with a beginning. I can't imagine an infinite past with no beginning although I can conceive of it.
You should be aware we've made our points a while ago. There's no need to insist. We just disagree. Maybe you're correct, but for now you haven't been able to prove it to me. I failed to convince you. Fair enough. Personally, I can live with that.
EB

Logik wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:36 pm Assign numerical values to the concepts of "yesterday", "today" and "tomorrow" on your infiite-reals (0,1) model You don't need to know what infinity it is. Do it for both: countable and uncountable infinity. (I am literally giving you a free pass here, because YOU insisted on the Reals which are uncountable: http://mathonline.wikidot.com/the-set-o ... ncountable but then you keep second-guessing whether they are countable or uncountable)

To answer your question, I would need to know precisely what kind of infinity it would be.
EB

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:45 pm

Logik wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:36 pm Assign numerical values to the concepts of "yesterday", "today" and "tomorrow" on your infiite-reals (0,1) model You don't need to know what infinity it is.Do it for both: countable and uncountable infinity. (I am literally giving you a free pass here, because YOU insisted on the Reals which are uncountable: http://mathonline.wikidot.com/the-set-o ... ncountable but then you keep second-guessing whether they are countable or uncountable)

To answer your question, I would need to know precisely what kind of infinity it would be.
EB

Rebuttal 1: No, you don't. Do it for both. Countable and uncountable.
Rebuttal 2: You already know what kind of infinity it is.

Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:35 pm Without going in the details, it makes Reals in [0,1] a possible model

The Reals are uncountable


Of course, we all know you are just nit-picking and inventing obstacles as a way of saving face from admitting your mistake...