Philosophy Now Forum

Arising_uk wrote:No, I asked you to give me an example of an objective morality.

I'm still waiting for the same thing. IC adopts the well-worn strategy he obviously learned from the master apologist Craig himself. He either answers questions with a question or ignores them altogether and just thumps out the same endless mantra. Craig gets away with it because he only preaches to the converted but you're not in Sunday School now, IC. You're mixing it with folk who understand the rules of engagement in philosophical discourse and seriously embarrassing yourself in the process. Have we seen your best shot or do you eventually propose to say something original?

Why not lighten things up a bit and try the punters out on the Kalaam cosmological argument? There's precious little comic relief in this topic the way its heading at the moment and everybody loves the frisson of slapstick when the self-righteous go arse-up on a banana skin.

Arising_uk wrote:

attofishpi wrote:Ok, hit me, im all eyes.

Matthew 6:6:- 6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Err, trust me, one can still pray in church in secret. You expect people to climb into a closet based on the above eh?

Immanuel Can wrote:Man is not his own Judge. He is a contingent creature of some 75 years duration or so, and one whose personal estimation of good and evil is so confused that he could pose a question like the one on this strand.

So you have no criteria to decide whether you or I are more likely to spend eternity in Hell.

Immanuel Can wrote:"Grace" is the unmerited favour of God, available to all people. It's "unmerited," in that none of us, including me, deserves it. But it's "gracious" in that God is great enough to forgive us, if we will accept the rescue He offers.

So there are presumably, at least some passages in the bible that you think should be taken literally. Is there an objective criteion by which we can all make that judgement?

Immanuel Can wrote:Once again, I suspect you're not really much interested in the Mosaic Law or Judaism. And not being a spokesman for that view, I'll let others attend to that.

Once again: No I'm not, but are you one of those who reads the bible and is “so interested in what it says as in making it say what they would like...”? Again; if you do not interpret the bible, what criteria do you conduct yourself by?

attofishpi wrote:

Arising_uk wrote:

attofishpi wrote:Ok, hit me, im all eyes.

Matthew 6:6:- 6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Err, trust me, one can still pray in church in secret. You expect people to climb into a closet based on the above eh?

Um...I think the point of that scripture was to make sure you are praying within your heart in an honest way and not showing off to others.

This has been sittin' on my thumb drive a while...


An ethical code was created by Tourist Union #63 during its 1889 National Hobo Convention in St. Louis Missouri. This code was voted upon as a concrete set of laws to govern the Nation-wide Hobo Body; it reads this way:

1.Decide your own life, don't let another person run or rule you.

2.When in town, always respect the local law and officials, and try to be a gentleman at all times.

3.Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos.

4.Always try to find work, even if temporary, and always seek out jobs nobody wants. By doing so you not only help a business along, but ensure employment should you return to that town again.

5.When no employment is available, make your own work by using your added talents at crafts.

6.Do not allow yourself to become a stupid drunk and set a bad example for locals' treatment of other hobos.

7.When jungling in town, respect handouts, do not wear them out, another hobo will be coming along who will need them as bad, if not worse than you.

8.Always respect nature, do not leave garbage where you are jungling.

9.If in a community jungle, always pitch in and help.

10.Try to stay clean, and boil up wherever possible.

11.When traveling, ride your train respectfully, take no personal chances, cause no problems with the operating crew or host railroad, act like an extra crew member.

12.Do not cause problems in a train yard, another hobo will be coming along who will need passage through that yard.

13.Do not allow other hobos to molest children, expose all molesters to authorities, they are the worst garbage to infest any society.

14.Help all runaway children, and try to induce them to return home.

15.Help your fellow hobos whenever and wherever needed, you may need their help someday.

16.If present at a hobo court and you have testimony, give it. Whether for or against the accused, your voice counts!


...there's stuff embedded in the code that's relevant to the question of 'how to tell right from wrong'...I have some ideas about that embedded stuff but I'll let you folks have shot, as you will, at it first.

uwot wrote: So you have no criteria to decide whether you or I are more likely to spend eternity in Hell.

Correct. He has none. Still, he believes since he professes to believe that jesus died on the cross for our sins he is going to heaven...but he still has an inkling of fear that maybe he won't...as it says all the names of who is going or who is not have already been written. He believes, as a christian, that he cannot know who is going and who is not...as at the last moment before death, jesus can come to an atheist and say, "do you believe in me" and if the atheists says 'yes', then the atheist good to go.

SO I don't get all the fighting in Jesus's name. Obviously, if he tells us that we can't know who and who is not going to heaven, then why would we fight non believers at all? Why all this bull about I am right and you are wrong...when it clearly commands that we love thy neighbor. This is why I think they need my little test. It helps a christian think about what they believe...because the bible does get confusing. There are stories they know logically, can't be true. So all I am saying, is if they still want to believe and do what God says, then the only logical thing, according to their bible, is to read the bible using the 10 commandments at the very least! If you read a passage, and don't understand it, you can think of what it means using the 10 commandments....or by imagining yourself on judgement day.

As, you can clearly see, how confused they get about what is right and wrong.

If they read the bible and it tells them they must fight and distrust atheists. Then they are reading it wrong....because clearly the command is to love thy neighbor. Hello...what part of 'command' do they not get?


This is another place I lose understanding of what they believe...Christians believe that Jews are the 'chosen people" but at the same time they believe "Jews will not go to heaven" because they don't believe in Christ. So I wonder what the jews are "chosen" for? Can anyone clear that up for me?

uwot wrote: So there are presumably, at least some passages in the bible that you think should be taken literally. Is there an objective criteion by which we can all make that judgement?

Good question but I doubt IC will answer it.

uwot wrote:]Once again: No I'm not, but are you one of those who reads the bible and is “so interested in what it says as in making it say what they would like...”? Again; if you do not interpret the bible, what criteria do you conduct yourself by?

Good question again. Christians tend to favor remote passages in the bible that do not appear very often, and take the passages out of context meaning to not translate them keeping the 10 commandments in mind , which by the way are reiterated over and over in the bible so there is to be no doubt of God's meaning.

Here's the thing about this thread...and I think something atheists don't understand about Christians. You will never ever break their faith...don't even try. There is no way...you are wasting your breath. However, if you really want to make them think about things. Do what arising did and read their bible...and then hold them accountable for what they believe with their own scriptures. THAT is the only way to get the to think about right and wrong.

They are very much into acting in a socially acceptable manner as far as morality goes. If the masses call for a holy war...they will show a place in the bible that it says one must fight a holy war. If the masses call for peace and love, they will show a passage in the bible where it says to love. They need that book...and that is what atheists don't understand. If Christians did not have the bible, there would be nothing to control them at all. They don't have a moral compass...they follow the leader, who ever that is at the time. If there is nothing to point out when they are committing sin, they would not be able to figure it out. Isn't that obvious in the fact that IC wants to know desperately how and why non christians know right from wrong? He believes it is because of the bible. He believes that is how everyone got their instinctive understanding of right and wrong...from God.

And this is why I did not want this thread to go in the direction of atheist vs. christian. atheists are beating a dead horse. But instead, to hold them accountable for what their bible says, is the ONLY way to get them to behave properly....i.e. stop being so mean toward their fellow man.

But then...sometimes that doesn't even work. I told one racist christian (Not a friend...this girl is an acquaintance who is off the charts non thinking mean christian). About what I told my sis...about if you go to heaven and can ask jesus, "Why did you make the f'n n-----?" And she didn't even contemplate her wrongness at all....(at least it gave my sister pause to think)...noooo...you know what this bitch said?! She said, "I wonder what God would say?" No...seriously...this is what she said. Dumbfounded, I said, "Um....I am guessing he would say, "for the same reason I made all my people". I'm sorry, but when faced with that kind of nonsense, I can't wrap my head around it enough to come up with a better reply...I have to admit, the meanness of racism in a christian still catches me off guard...cause I don't understand it.

attofishpi wrote:Err, trust me, one can still pray in church in secret. ...

Sure, just as long as they don't pray with others.

You expect people to climb into a closet based on the above eh?

Sure, as long as they understand the medieval meaning of the word.

Arising_uk wrote:

attofishpi wrote:Err, trust me, one can still pray in church in secret. ...

Sure, just as long as they don't pray with others.

You expect people to climb into a closet based on the above eh?

Sure, as long as they understand the medieval meaning of the word.

This just verifies that you (Arising_uk) have no understanding of Christianity, so further comments from you can be totally disregarded.

thedoc wrote:

Arising_uk wrote:

attofishpi wrote:Err, trust me, one can still pray in church in secret. ...

Sure, just as long as they don't pray with others.

You expect people to climb into a closet based on the above eh?

Sure, as long as they understand the medieval meaning of the word.

This just verifies that you (Arising_uk) have no understanding of Christianity, so further comments from you can be totally disregarded.

You over state your case. This makes you look a little desperate. I doubt there are any people on earth who have "NO" understanding of Christianity. What you are pretending is that you think there ought to be a simple understanding that could be accessible?

This is an example of the No true Scotsman fallacy. It's clear enough, there being an indefinite number of interpretations to Christianity, that there is no such animal as a single uncontested view concerning Christian belief.

This alone makes the central plank of Christianity: redemption, tricky. It being so difficult, how are we to achieve God's will?

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

thedoc wrote:

Arising_uk wrote:Sure, just as long as they don't pray with others.

This just verifies that you (Arising_uk) have no understanding of Christianity, so further comments from you can be totally disregarded.

You over state your case. This makes you look a little desperate. I doubt there are any people on earth who have "NO" understanding of Christianity. What you are pretending is that you think there ought to be a simple understanding that could be accessible?

This is an example of the No true Scotsman fallacy. It's clear enough, there being an indefinite number of interpretations to Christianity, that there is no such animal as a single uncontested view concerning Christian belief.

This alone makes the central plank of Christianity: redemption, tricky. It being so difficult, how are we to achieve God's will?

Christians aren't expected to achieve God's will, just to try, there is a difference.

thedoc wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

thedoc wrote:
This just verifies that you (Arising_uk) have no understanding of Christianity, so further comments from you can be totally disregarded.

You over state your case. This makes you look a little desperate. I doubt there are any people on earth who have "NO" understanding of Christianity. What you are pretending is that you think there ought to be a simple understanding that could be accessible?

This is an example of the No true Scotsman fallacy. It's clear enough, there being an indefinite number of interpretations to Christianity, that there is no such animal as a single uncontested view concerning Christian belief.

This alone makes the central plank of Christianity: redemption, tricky. It being so difficult, how are we to achieve God's will?

Christians aren't expected to achieve God's will, just to try, there is a difference.

1) Prove it.
2) Now tell me how I am supposed to know God's Will?

thedoc wrote:Christians aren't expected to achieve God's will, just to try, there is a difference.

I think that was the point of artisticsolution's suggestion in the first place. (Incidentally AS, I have read the bible and given that I studied with Arising, I'm sure he'll vouch for me.)

artisticsolution wrote:Here's the thing about this thread...and I think something atheists don't understand about Christians. You will never ever break their faith...don't even try. There is no way...you are wasting your breath.

I really don't want to destroy anyone's faith, even if I could, but I have no qualms about rubbishing logical arguments that aim to show that people who have no faith should have one.

artisticsolution wrote:And this is why I did not want this thread to go in the direction of atheist vs. christian. atheists are beating a dead horse. But instead, to hold them accountable for what their bible says, is the ONLY way to get them to behave properly....i.e. stop being so mean toward their fellow man.

As you say though, there are passages in the bible that exhort people to do terrible things. Frankly, I think religion would be better off without books altogether.

artisticsolution wrote:...I have to admit, the meanness of racism in a christian still catches me off guard...cause I don't understand it.

Well, people have always made gods in their own image. Tragically, it is often the sociopathic nutters who force their god on others.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

thedoc wrote: Christians aren't expected to achieve God's will, just to try, there is a difference.

1) Prove it.
2) Now tell me how I am supposed to know God's Will?

1) I believe it, that is proof enough.
2) You already know it, you just don't seem to recognize that it is from God.

thedoc wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

thedoc wrote: Christians aren't expected to achieve God's will, just to try, there is a difference.

1) Prove it.
2) Now tell me how I am supposed to know God's Will?

1) I believe it, that is proof enough.
2) You already know it, you just don't seem to recognize that it is from God.

In 1) What is "it"?

In 2) talking cryptically won't win any arguments, you simply are making mine.