Consciousness and free will.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

alpha wrote:if your self-delusion (believing in freewill) serves you well, then by all means.
Obvious Leo wrote:I don't believe in anything because belief is simply not a part of my conceptual make-up. I am a man of science and that human beings are able to anticipate the consequences of their future actions and behave accordingly is a doctrinal position in all the sciences, as well as being a statement of the bloody obvious.
many scientists are determinists. do you know something they don't? what's so "bloody obvious" to you, that eludes the minds of many great scientists, and physicists, such as einstein and hawking? i guess einstein was deluding himself into thinking he's a puppet, as well.
Obvious Leo wrote:If you don't buy it I couldn't care less but it's got me fucked why you haven't topped yourself.
none of your business.
Obvious Leo wrote:You're a puppet in a simulated reality.
sorry to burst your bubble, but so are you. we all are, unfortunately. it's not possible otherwise.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

alpha wrote:many scientists are determinists.
ALL scientists are determinists. However it is only the Newtonian troglodytes like Hawking who conflate determinism with pre-determinism.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Obvious Leo wrote:Alpha. You commit a common logical error by conflating consciousness with awareness. Consciousness is a PROCESS and it is simply a generic term for all acts of cognition but awareness is a specific term for one's observation of such acts. Clearly one can't observe something until after it's already occurred so we can't be aware of a thought until after we've already thought it, but this act of observation can then operate as a causal agent in directing the cognitive process. Perhaps a a basic text on cognitive neuroscience might help you understand that neurally networked computation is non-linear and thus non-Newtonian. In non-Newtonian systems causation operates both top-down and bottom up throughout networked causal hierarchies.
I think it might be worthwhile to make a distinction between awareness and consciousness, but I do not think that your particular version is necessarily the one everyone would accept.
The two words are almost interchangeable, but whilst some uses to which they are both put can be exclusive, they are very often to be found covering exactly the same ground. We must be aware that the words are no the thing of it, but gross approximations of parts of reality. The universe does not obey laws, nor does it comply with our descriptions. Descriptions and laws are consequent on events.

Both are processual, in the sense that neither can exist or make sense as a static phenomenon. We might choose to take one or the other as synchronic or diachronic - but this would only be for explanatory purposes, not for descriptions of how they work, but what they are.
A non processual model for anything is a falsehood. Time moves on.
For Alpha's purposes, no reflections on either gives rise to "free will", what ever the fuck that might be this week.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Obvious Leo wrote:
alpha wrote:many scientists are determinists.
ALL scientists are determinists. However it is only the Newtonian troglodytes like Hawking who conflate determinism with pre-determinism.
at least i'm in good company. what courses do you suggest hawking take in order to better educate himself on these matters? what would you have suggested to einstein, had he still been around?

i really don't know what newton did to you, but cut the guy some slack, man.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
I think it might be worthwhile to make a distinction between awareness and consciousness, but I do not think that your particular version is necessarily the one everyone would accept.
Possibly not. I was merely explaining the way the terms are used in science. Cognitive neuroscience is a mature discipline with a rigorous methodology and I see little point in ignoring it whilst still trying to have a meaningful discussion about the processes of consciousness.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

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The blokes you refer to are physicists and physics is a branch of applied mathematics. Mathematicians are not qualified to make statements about the nature of determinism. Physicists proceed from the flawed Platonist assumption that reality is determined according to a suite of laws of unknown origin. This is the Newtonian stance on which the entire science of physics is founded and it is plain bullshit. Reality is self-determining, as Hobbes has so correctly pointed out.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:We must be aware that the words are no the thing of it, but gross approximations of parts of reality. The universe does not obey laws, nor does it comply with our descriptions. Descriptions and laws are consequent on events.

Both are processual, in the sense that neither can exist or make sense as a static phenomenon. We might choose to take one or the other as synchronic or diachronic - but this would only be for explanatory purposes, not for descriptions of how they work, but what they are.
A non processual model for anything is a falsehood. Time moves on.
this is a bit too complicated for me, hc. i understand simple words, such as "causation" and "randomness". when you say the universe doesn't obey laws, do you mean it's random? because randomness can only lead to chaos, and the universe certainly has order, even though it might not be the kind of order i'd prefer. causation is the antithesis of randomness. so by the law of no contradiction, they can't bot be true at the same time. and by the law of excluded middle (yes, leo, i said it excluded middle), both can't be wrong either. there is no other imaginable option/possibility.

explain with simple words, hc.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:For Alpha's purposes, no reflections on either gives rise to "free will"....
hc, you've made my day/night.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Obvious Leo wrote:The blokes you refer to are physicists and physics is a branch of applied mathematics. Mathematicians are not qualified to make statements about the nature of determinism. Physicists proceed from the flawed Platonist assumption that reality is determined according to a suite of laws of unknown origin. This is the Newtonian stance on which the entire science of physics is founded and it is plain bullshit.
so physicists, mathematicians, and philosophers are "dingbats". i'm sure if i were to produce some scientists in other fields, who shared our views, they'd also be "dingbats", and "newtonian troglodytes".
Obvious Leo wrote:Reality is self-determining, as Hobbes has so correctly pointed out.
he also pointed out that freewill can't exist, regardless.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

Alpha. There's no such thing as randomness in physical reality, if by randomness you mean uncaused events. However there is a distinct difference between events which are caused by previous events and events which are caused according to a suite of laws. I suspect you are conflating randomness with unpredictability but these are not synonymous constructs. You also misuse use the word "chaos" because chaos is completely deterministic whilst being utterly beyond prediction.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Obvious Leo wrote:Alpha. There's no such thing as randomness in physical reality, if by randomness you mean uncaused events. However there is a distinct difference between events which are caused by previous events and events which are caused according to a suite of laws. I suspect you are conflating randomness with unpredictability but these are not synonymous constructs. You also misuse use the word "chaos" because chaos is completely deterministic whilst being utterly beyond prediction.
i am not misusing or conflating anything. by "randomness" i mean actual randomness (yes, uncaused by anything), which i agree, is impossible, whether in physical or metaphysical realities (if one believes in metaphysicals). by "chaotic" i mean truly chaotic (doesn't follow any laws/rules/principles), which is also impossible in physical and metaphysical realities. i, like eintein, laplace, newton, and many others, don't need to be able to predict something to believe it's completely deterministic. "previous events", "suites of laws", or any other thing, doesn't change the fact that nothing (except something infinitely old, to avoid infinite regress, for which of course you don't much care) can be uncaused.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

You should be more careful in your use of language. Chaotic determinism has a precise and well understood meaning in science and I suggest you learn what it is because you are quite certainly misusing it. You can't just apply your own meanings to commonly accepted words and then still expect people to understand what you're talking about.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Obvious Leo wrote:You should be more careful in your use of language. Chaotic determinism has a precise and well understood meaning in science and I suggest you learn what it is because you are quite certainly misusing it. You can't just apply your own meanings to commonly accepted words and then still expect people to understand what you're talking about.
your problem is that you think everyone should abide by scientific rules and terminology. sometimes, us non-scientific folk like to use the dictionary (or such) as reference. i never said "chaotic determinism" means so and so, or "chaos in scientific terminology" means so and so.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

alpha wrote:your problem is that you think everyone should abide by scientific rules and terminology.
You better fucking believe it, pal. If you want to open your ignorant gob and make sweeping statements on matters of science then you better make certain that you first acquaint yourself with the facts, or else you're going to finish up looking like a halfwit. As has been satisfactorily demonstrated.
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alpha
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by alpha »

Obvious Leo wrote:
alpha wrote:your problem is that you think everyone should abide by scientific rules and terminology.
You better fucking believe it, pal. If you want to open your ignorant gob and make sweeping statements on matters of science then you better make certain that you first acquaint yourself with the facts, or else you're going to finish up looking like a halfwit. As has been satisfactorily demonstrated.
this isn't a scientific matter you blithering idiot.
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Re: Consciousness and free will.

Post by Obvious Leo »

Hold the front page for breaking news. The subject of consciousness is not a scientific question. Who's going to break it to the millions of scientists who devote their entire lives to the study of it?
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