Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:56 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:34 pm
Well, come on, now. NOBODY says the causalty figures are even close to that high. You're doing drama.

You are as blind as a bat.

Really?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:50 am

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:48 am The way I look at it is that Hamas, and all Palestinian resistance fighters,...

That's one really, really dumb way to look at things.

What they are is an Islamic terrorist racist organization, bent on ethnic "cleansing" of Israel, and that without any moral boundaries at all. That much, they've clearly demonstrated.

They kill babies. They rape women. They have no regard for civilians, even their own. And they will not quit. So there's not much that can be done with uninhibited, psychopathic, genocidal murderers.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:06 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:50 am

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:48 am The way I look at it is that Hamas, and all Palestinian resistance fighters,...

That's one really, really dumb way to look at things.

What they are is an Islamic terrorist racist organization, bent on ethnic "cleansing" of Israel, and that without any moral boundaries at all. That much, they've clearly demonstrated.

They kill babies. They rape women. They have no regard for civilians, even their own. And they will not quit. So there's not much that can be done with uninhibited, psychopathic, genocidal murderers.

If I were to attempt a retort by declaring that, no, you are *stupid* (for one reason or another) it would be a false diversion. You are not stupid. Yet you have made it clear, over many years now, that you believe things that only children could believe. But what interests and concerns me is not the childlike and fairytale silly things that you believe are real, but how your religious/Christian (Christian Zionist) perspective orients and distorts your perception in ways that seem to bring about very destructive results.

Must I revise my assessments and label you mentally deficient? I don't think so. Were I to do that I would miss the real, important and determining facts: you are highly indoctrinated and you have bound yourself up in fanatical beliefs. You are so wedded to your views that your perception of reality is modified by what I call *hallucinatory* projections. So actually this fanaticism in combination with intelligence is far more alarming and concerning than if you were (literally) stupid.

Were you to do a bit of research on war, conquest, settler/occupation specifically in respect to Israel, you would discover that sexual violence and rape have been a large part of the Israeli assault on Palestinian people. This was noted back in 1948. There have been rabbis who provided biblical justifications for the rape of people under siege.

But you are necessarily ignorant of this, aren't you? It would never be something that you'd have considered possible, would it? It is an inconceivable thought because, for you, your perceptual lens defines things in binaries. The Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Obviously, Hamas and by implication Islamists and Gazans are implicated a priori in evilness. Your perspectives are skewed by a set of tenets that you hold to whether they are true or not. Thus you provide a lesson for thoughtful readership -- in every post of yours there are many lessons! -- about how any of us can fall into a self-constructed trap when we see through prejudiced eyes and project our own content outward.

I do not doubt that Gazan fighters raped or sexually abused Israeli (and possibly other) women. In war -- traditionally and historically -- sexual violence has always happened. But none of this has any bearing at all on the fact that Israel has created the profound problem it now faces and cannot escape from because of its original actions: dispossession, killing and on-going violence of an extreme type against Palestinians. The original act is found there and nowhere else.

How is it that you can construct and present yourself as having a *moral* position when time and again you give evidence of being the opposite of moral -- in any sense that we (those who read your mishegoss) consider to be moral?

As you are aware I have been attempting to come up with answers. Primarily, I see you as invested in a demiurgic imago that you refer to as Jesus Christ. The core of your disease, if I may explain it this way, is in that. Your demiurge, which is linked to your imagination, and also to your personality and your *self*, is a projection of your self. When you speak of *Jesus Christ* you are actually speaking of a lower aspect of your self. I have now been entertaining the possibility that this is how mass Christianity operates -- as a mass phenomenon. You are linked with thousands and millions of *believers* and your hallucinated perceptions are inculcated and shared. May I present a really crude representation of what I mean? Here.

These are mass performances, trance-inducement sessions, which align participants with hallucinated content. The essence of your preaching, Manny, the essence of your Christian Evangelism, is in this. It is madness of course. And there is no other way to describe it.

But having aligned yourself with such things (it is a question of degree) must I revise my assessment and say you involve yourself in this because you are stupid? Again, no. You particularly are more dangerous because your articulateness has greater potency in deceiving people that there is any *goodness* in your positions. You are a con artist, a fraud, and a deceiver. However, do not take this as a personal attack. Because you qua individual are not relevant. But you as a mass-man and as a participant in a mass movement -- at that point you-plural are a definite danger.

What I attempt here is to try to see the historical outcomes that will result from your affiliations while we are still in the midst of events. It is a maddened psychology that propels events forward -- toward catastrophe. But those who were the propelling agents, when the evil outcome manifests, always seem to shrug off responsibility. I am interested in the question of moral responsibility now.

In situations of war-making, invasion, conquest -- let me refer to Iraq as an example -- the act of violence produces reaction. It tends to create an opposing violence and a resistance that brings out the worst. But the original act (invasion, occupation) is the larger culprit. Similarly, what Israel did originally still repercusses today. In no sense am I creating moral justification for any act of violence or terror perpetrated by Hamas. A cycle of violence tends to foment again and again the same sorts of outcomes. That is the nature of vicious circles.

Because we are inclined (supposedly) to philosophy and more involved and revealing analysis I say that it is best to examine you through the perspectives I present here. You are at your core a religious fanatic and, in my view, that is the description that gets closest to why you think and say the things you do.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:01 pm Shove your links. None of that has anything to do with the obscenities that were committed on 7/10.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:01 pm Shove your links. None of that has anything to do with the obscenities that were committed on 7/10.

They don't talk about that. It hurts the narrative that says that the terrorists of Hamas are just "freedom fighters." They don't mention the terror tunnels, the brutalizing and victimizing of their own people, the theft of billions of "aid" dollars to create armaments and tunnels and grossly enrich their leaders hiding in places like Qatar, the using of their own citizens as human shields, the exploiting of civilian hospitals, schools and mosques, or even the shooting of rockets -- which has never stopped this whole time, and is now striking Jerusalem itself, even at the risk of their own alleged "holy" site.

And they definitely, definitely want to get you to forget what Hamas did on Oct. 7th.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:11 pm What exactly motivates these people? I don't think sculptor is thick, so there is something else going on...

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:06 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:50 am

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:48 am The way I look at it is that Hamas, and all Palestinian resistance fighters,...

That's one really, really dumb way to look at things.

What they are is an Islamic terrorist racist organization, bent on ethnic "cleansing" of Israel, and that without any moral boundaries at all. That much, they've clearly demonstrated.

They kill babies. They rape women. They have no regard for civilians, even their own. And they will not quit. So there's not much that can be done with uninhibited, psychopathic, genocidal murderers.

If I were to attempt a retort by declaring that, no, you are *stupid* (for one reason or another) it would be a false diversion. You are not stupid. Yet you have made it clear, over many years now, that you believe things that only children could believe. But what interests and concerns me is not the childlike and fairytale silly things that you believe are real, but how your religious/Christian (Christian Zionist) perspective orients and distorts your perception in ways that seem to bring about very destructive results.

Must I revise my assessments and label you mentally deficient? I don't think so. Were I to do that I would miss the real, important and determining facts: you are highly indoctrinated and you have bound yourself up in fanatical beliefs. You are so wedded to your views that your perception of reality is modified by what I call *hallucinatory* projections. So actually this fanaticism in combination with intelligence is far more alarming and concerning than if you were (literally) stupid.

Were you to do a bit of research on war, conquest, settler/occupation specifically in respect to Israel, you would discover that sexual violence and rape have been a large part of the Israeli assault on Palestinian people. This was noted back in 1948. There have been rabbis who provided biblical justifications for the rape of people under siege.

But you are necessarily ignorant of this, aren't you? It would never be something that you'd have considered possible, would it? It is an inconceivable thought because, for you, your perceptual lens defines things in binaries. The Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Obviously, Hamas and by implication Islamists and Gazans are implicated a priori in evilness. Your perspectives are skewed by a set of tenets that you hold to whether they are true or not. Thus you provide a lesson for thoughtful readership -- in every post of yours there are many lessons! -- about how any of us can fall into a self-constructed trap when we see through prejudiced eyes and project our own content outward.

I do not doubt that Gazan fighters raped or sexually abused Israeli (and possibly other) women. In war -- traditionally and historically -- sexual violence has always happened. But none of this has any bearing at all on the fact that Israel has created the profound problem it now faces and cannot escape from because of its original actions: dispossession, killing and on-going violence of an extreme type against Palestinians. The original act is found there and nowhere else.

How is it that you can construct and present yourself as having a *moral* position when time and again you give evidence of being the opposite of moral -- in any sense that we (those who read your mishegoss) consider to be moral?

As you are aware I have been attempting to come up with answers. Primarily, I see you as invested in a demiurgic imago that you refer to as Jesus Christ. The core of your disease, if I may explain it this way, is in that. Your demiurge, which is linked to your imagination, and also to your personality and your *self*, is a projection of your self. When you speak of *Jesus Christ* you are actually speaking of a lower aspect of your self. I have now been entertaining the possibility that this is how mass Christianity operates -- as a mass phenomenon. You are linked with thousands and millions of *believers* and your hallucinated perceptions are inculcated and shared. May I present a really crude representation of what I mean? Here.

These are mass performances, trance-inducement sessions, which align participants with hallucinated content. The essence of your preaching, Manny, the essence of your Christian Evangelism, is in this. It is madness of course. And there is no other way to describe it.

But having aligned yourself with such things (it is a question of degree) must I revise my assessment and say you involve yourself in this because you are stupid? Again, no. You particularly are more dangerous because your articulateness has greater potency in deceiving people that there is any *goodness* in your positions. You are a con artist, a fraud, and a deceiver. However, do not take this as a personal attack. Because you qua individual are not relevant. But you as a mass-man and as a participant in a mass movement -- at that point you-plural are a definite danger.

What I attempt here is to try to see the historical outcomes that will result from your affiliations while we are still in the midst of events. It is a maddened psychology that propels events forward -- toward catastrophe. But those who were the propelling agents, when the evil outcome manifests, always seem to shrug off responsibility. I am interested in the question of moral responsibility now.

In situations of war-making, invasion, conquest -- let me refer to Iraq as an example -- the act of violence produces reaction. It tends to create an opposing violence and a resistance that brings out the worst. But the original act (invasion, occupation) is the larger culprit. Similarly, what Israel did originally still repercusses today. In no sense am I creating moral justification for any act of violence or terror perpetrated by Hamas. A cycle of violence tends to foment again and again the same sorts of outcomes. That is the nature of vicious circles.

Because we are inclined (supposedly) to philosophy and more involved and revealing analysis I say that it is best to examine you through the perspectives I present here. You are at your core a religious fanatic and, in my view, that is the description that gets closest to why you think and say the things you do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:01 pm ... the obscenities that were committed on 7/10.

They don't talk about that. It hurts the narrative that says that the terrorists of Hamas are just "freedom fighters." They don't mention the terror tunnels, the brutalizing and victimizing of their own people, the theft of billions of "aid" dollars to create armaments and tunnels and grossly enrich their leaders hiding in places like Qatar, the using of their own citizens as human shields, the exploiting of civilian hospitals, schools and mosques, or even the shooting of rockets -- which has never stopped this whole time, and is now striking Jerusalem itself, even at the risk of their own alleged "holy" site.

And they definitely, definitely want to get you to forget what Hamas did on Oct. 7th.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:57 pm There is no reason why not to talk about the atrocities of 7 October.

But one would have to speak about those events within a wider context (of 70 years...}

Terror tunnels? How can a tunnel be terrorist?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:41 pm That's the first sane thing you've had to say.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:41 pm Oy vey.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:01 pm ... the obscenities that were committed on 7/10.

They don't talk about that. It hurts the narrative that says that the terrorists of Hamas are just "freedom fighters." They don't mention the terror tunnels, the brutalizing and victimizing of their own people, the theft of billions of "aid" dollars to create armaments and tunnels and grossly enrich their leaders hiding in places like Qatar, the using of their own citizens as human shields, the exploiting of civilian hospitals, schools and mosques, or even the shooting of rockets -- which has never stopped this whole time, and is now striking Jerusalem itself, even at the risk of their own alleged "holy" site.

And they definitely, definitely want to get you to forget what Hamas did on Oct. 7th.

There is no reason why not to talk about the atrocities of 7 October.

But one would have to speak about those events within a wider context (of 70 years of occupation, etc.) and also one would have to know all the details of how Israel chose to fight the Hamas operatives; to what degree their missiles did damage; and also how many of the SuperNova partiers were killed by Israel forces. Finally the issue of *intentionally murdered babies* (babied baked in the oven and cut from their mother's womb etc.) (said to have been proven false) would have to be cleared up.

Once all that was were settled one could then work out the final assessment of moral guilt.

Despite atrocities -- and these occur in all wars and social conflicts, in fact there is no war where they do not occur -- Hamas is still a 'freedom fighting' outfit. That atrocities and war-crimes were committed does not invalidate their cause.

Terror tunnels? How can a tunnel be terrorist? The tunnels are necessary survival tunnels (and the use of tunnels is a branch of warfare I have read).

I admit that the recent team-up of Manny and Veggie is somewhat unlikely and certainly a bit odd, still I look forward to seeing where it will go.

Curious how this issue both divides and unites!