Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:30 pm
Spacetime is a substance, or in other words, exists and has properties. In this sense is objective.
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Spacetime is a substance, or in other words, exists and has properties. In this sense is objective.
Your opinion is skewered because the Uncaused Cause (argument) is logical and does not fall down the rabbit hole of infinite regression, since the argument posits an uncaused creator-mind.Atla wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:24 pmWhat's the good logical reason? Imo logically the first cause argument just leads to infinite regress - who created the creator, and who created that, and so on.VVilliam wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:59 amAtla wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:32 am
I'm exactly not talking about cycles and spiralic time. Read back if you want. And no creation of course, if people are psychologically dependent on the idea of a Creator then they can just believe in it without trying to pretend to do so out of a need to be logical.
There is good logical reason for accepting that the universe is a mindful creation, but not so much that the mind which created it, has to be "supernatural".
Which is a self-refuting illogical argument because if something uncaused is allowed, then we can just cut out the creator part and say that the universe is uncaused.VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:16 pmYour opinion is skewered because the Uncaused Cause (argument) is logical and does not fall down the rabbit hole of infinite regression, since the argument posits an uncaused creator-mind.
Of we could have many uncaused creator minds. Or the uncaused whatever has always been making this universe. It wouldn't need a beginning, it could always have had uncaused maintenance. Or, as you say it could be uncaused itself. Where in the rules does it say, it has to be a deity. The whole idea that some miracle happens. How could we in our limited knowledge say it only happened once or only conscious miracles can happen?Atla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:21 pmWhich is a self-refuting illogical argument because if something uncaused is allowed, then we can just cut out the creator part and say that the universe is uncaused.
Exactly.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:30 pmOf we could have many uncaused creator minds. Or the uncaused whatever has always been making this universe. It wouldn't need a beginning, it could always have had uncaused maintenance. Or, as you say it could be uncaused itself. Where in the rules does it say, it has to be a deity. The whole idea that some miracle happens. How could we in our limited knowledge say it only happened once or only conscious miracles can happen?
And anyone who says it must have been a deity, should they join the omnipotent club, why couldn't such a deity make a universe that always was?
Or why must it/they be conscious?
And so on. I mean, sure we can open to door, but once that door is open, let's not pretend we know what can and can't be on the other side, like these guys are.
No we cannot because then we are stuck with thinking therefore that the universe didn't begin/have a beginning. It came forth from the stuff of itself, (physical) and always has been mindful, (the mind is physical) even that the functional forms themselves come and go, they are created by the creator-mind, are made of condensed material of the mind and beginnings and ends only signify the "universe" created and experience by the mind which created them is temporal, whereas the mind which created the universe is eternal.Atla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:21 pmWhich is a self-refuting illogical argument because if something uncaused is allowed, then we can just cut out the creator part and say that the universe is uncaused.
So, this creator mind has limited power?VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:06 amNo we cannot because then we are stuck with thinking therefore that the universe didn't begin/have a beginning. It came forth from the stuff of itself, (physical) and always has been mindful, (the mind is physical) even that the functional forms themselves come and go, they are created by the creator-mind, are made of condensed material of the mind and beginnings and ends only signify the "universe" created and experience by the mind which created them is temporal, whereas the mind which created the universe is eternal.
In this way it can be acceptable that infinite regress (and infinite progress) consist of uncounted/uncountable creations (universes) which have beginnings and ends which the eternal creator-mind has, does and will always experience...one after the other...and this has been happening eternally and will continue to happen eternally...as it is the beginnings and ends which allow for said regress and progress to not be a contradiction.
iow - there has and will always exist the one creator mind, but there is no limit on the number of universes coming and going.
I believe God not to be the creator of everything, but certainly our perceivable reality. To address the infiinite regress paradox for a creator God, I think God formed from chaos, in context of a place of no logic, ergo no causality. Eventually God formed from chaos it's own intelligence, which could be explained by the caveat of random chance, and from there formed the logic indeed, the physical properties of our perceivable reality.Atla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:21 pmWhich is a self-refuting illogical argument because if something uncaused is allowed, then we can just cut out the creator part and say that the universe is uncaused.
No. Rather it limits its power for the purpose/in direct relationship to the universe it creates and experiences.
The God-idea you believe in and describe would be how the uncaused mind inhabits a thing it creates. It has always been eternally mindful, whereas each universe it chooses to create and experience (through the act of creation itself) have not only never existed before, but have never been mindfully experienced.attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:29 amI believe God not to be the creator of everything, but certainly our perceivable reality. To address the infiinite regress paradox for a creator God, I think God formed from chaos, in context of a place of no logic, ergo no causality. Eventually God formed from chaos it's own intelligence, which could be explained by the caveat of random chance, and from there formed the logic indeed, the physical properties of our perceivable reality.
Hence, one cannot infinitely regress through to the start of God, since that would require regressing through chaos, a place of no logic and thus no causality.
Again an illogical, self-refuting argument. If the creator mind is allowed to not begin / not have a beginning, then so can the universe be allowed. Same thing.VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:06 amNo we cannot because then we are stuck with thinking therefore that the universe didn't begin/have a beginning. It came forth from the stuff of itself, (physical) and always has been mindful, (the mind is physical) even that the functional forms themselves come and go, they are created by the creator-mind, are made of condensed material of the mind and beginnings and ends only signify the "universe" created and experience by the mind which created them is temporal, whereas the mind which created the universe is eternal.
In this way it can be acceptable that infinite regress (and infinite progress) consist of uncounted/uncountable creations (universes) which have beginnings and ends which the eternal creator-mind has, does and will always experience...one after the other...and this has been happening eternally and will continue to happen eternally...as it is the beginnings and ends which allow for said regress and progress to not be a contradiction.
iow - there has and will always exist the one creator mind, but there is no limit on the number of universes coming and going.
If you don't limit its power, then you cannot know 1) what it could have made as the rules 2) if the universe has always been here or not - since it could have made it any way it wanted 3) the limits that deity has placed on what you can imagine is possible.
However, I didn't I state it (God) created a universe, I said it created our perceivable reality and I certainly don't think we can perceive the entire universe.VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:24 amThe God-idea you believe in and describe would be how the uncaused mind inhabits a thing it creates. It has always been eternally mindful, whereas each universe it chooses to create and experience (through the act of creation itself) have not only never existed before, but have never been mindfully experienced.attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:29 amI believe God not to be the creator of everything, but certainly our perceivable reality. To address the infiinite regress paradox for a creator God, I think God formed from chaos, in context of a place of no logic, ergo no causality. Eventually God formed from chaos it's own intelligence, which could be explained by the caveat of random chance, and from there formed the logic indeed, the physical properties of our perceivable reality.
Hence, one cannot infinitely regress through to the start of God, since that would require regressing through chaos, a place of no logic and thus no causality.
..no, which in turn mindfully created what we perceive of the universe, not necessarily that this entity created the universe, but that it formed from the early chaos of it (the universe).VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:24 amThe impression we (from our point of observation) would be that "eventually God formed from chaos it's own intelligence", but we would be incorrect about that, as it still does not explain how the universe was caused - by nothing more than the magic of supposed/assumed "random chance" - a mindful God mindlessly created by a mindless thing, which in turn mindfully created this universe.
Don't you get dizzy going round and round in circle, re-defining the bounadries of "the universe" to fit your reasoning?