Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:41 pm ... you will pay ...

There is something hideously evil in the idea that suffering and loss are a value that can, "pay," for anything. Only those in love with hateful vengeance could believe in and worship such an imaginary monster that sought to torment others for its own gratification.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:21 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:41 pm ... you will pay ...

There is something hideously evil in the idea that suffering and loss are a value that can, "pay," for anything. Only those in love with hateful vengeance could believe in and worship such an imaginary monster that sought to torment others for its own gratification.

That is true. Some religionists do dwell on the suffering of Jesus as if that is what matters most. And that attitude to Jesus tends to give the Christ idea a bad reputation. The Christ myth is better interpreted as a life given entirely to good. We don't need or want martyrs, we need and want people who are led by reason and ordinary human kindness.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:21 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:41 pm ... you will pay ...

There is something hideously evil in the idea that suffering and loss are a value that can, "pay," for anything. Only those in love with hateful vengeance could believe in and worship such an imaginary monster that sought to torment others for its own gratification.

Tsk, tsk. What a nasty game you play.

Here's my original quotation, in full:

Your Creator made you and gave you life. That is an incalculable favour, no matter what Dontaskme thinks. And it also means you are not "your own," whatever you may wish you could believe. You owe your life to God in a far more profound way than any child owes his or her parents. You owe Him for every breath you take, for the fact that the molecules in your body hold together, and for every good thing you've ever known in your life.

And it's a debt you will pay, by giving account for what you did with all you were given.

You needn't argue with me about that, RC. It won't change a thing. Just wait and see, if you're so convinced you're right.

But my advice would still be, be ready.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Your Creator made you and gave you life. That is an incalculable favour, no matter what Dontaskme thinks. And it also means you are not "your own," whatever you may wish you could believe. You owe your life to God in a far more profound way than any child owes his or her parents. You owe Him for every breath you take, for the fact that the molecules in your body hold together, and for every good thing you've ever known in your life.

And it's a debt you will pay, by giving account for what you did with all you were given.

I agree, both paragraphs. not as something I know but as faith that the "far more profound way" is the order (e.g. "molecules holding together") that I have faith is basic.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:32 pm

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:45 pm
I certainly see a lot.

But it's always amazing to me how some people can actually argue they see none. Having an alternate explanation for phenomena that ordinarily would powerfully suggest the attentions of a Creator can, I think, be used as a way of shutting one's eyes. Maybe that's the main function of Evolutionism: it lets one see things like design and morality, but pretend they could have "just happened" instead of being intentional productions of the Creator.

Look around you, Gary...what do you see? Do you look at this world, the complexities and beauties of nature, and at yourself -- your own mind, conscience and identity, just for a start -- and say that "accident" is the obvious explanation?

I get your point but, if its not accidental, what is it?

Well, Jay, if it's not accidental, it can only be one thing: purposeful or intentional.

That's a fundamental difference between the types of explanation. By definition, an accidental process does not have any teleological trajectory or dimension. The universe itself cannot have actual purposes, directions, intended outcomes, or objective values in it. It just happened by accident, so anything more to be said about it is purely fictive.

Is there an unseen "force" screwing with our lives?

That seems to put a fairly negative spin on things, doesn't it? The Gnostics thought there was a creator, but he wasn't the ultimate god; rather, he was what they called a "demiurge," a sort of lesser being that was capable of creating things but was either incompetent or malevolent, and in that sense, he was thought to be "screwing with" people's lives.

That's not the universe I would say we are in. It's just what they said.

And you can understand their perspective on that, I'm sure. Things do indeed seem to be "out of sorts," to put it mildly. I think there are few observations so generally and powerfully felt as the realization that things as they are presently are not at all as they ought to be. And what else can the term "screwing with" imply, but that perhaps you find that perspective not entirely unreasonable?

As you say,

The reason I ask that is because I think there is.

But let's think about that: because in itself, it's a surprising fact, isn't it?

What I mean is this: suppose things are "out of sorts," just as everybody's intuition seems to be telling them. In an accidental universe, the fact that we all feel that would surely be a rather odd thing, don't you think? How could things "ought to be" other than what they actually are? The universe's accidents aligned things in just this way; and here, on some chance mudball in one corner of the universe, a bunch of beings who probably rightfully shouldn't exist, since the odds are all against their existing at all, suddenly appear and say, "Hey, this is not alright!"

What can they mean? The universe is what the universe is. What could cause them to think they somehow "deserve" more or other than they have? And what weird mechanics in the universe would accidentally create such complaining little blobs? Perhaps the only answer that an accidental universe can provide is, "Shut up and take it in the neck." But of course, the universe itself doesn't even care that much, and couldn't respond to their complaint if it were even capable of wanting to.

In any case, their complaint has no basis and reaches no ear. The universe doesn't care if they feel hard done-by. That, too, is just an accidental product of chance and time. And there isn't even the chance of that great human cry being answered. Nobody's listening.

But what if it's not like that? What if the intuition that things are "screwed up" is not an illusion, but is an intuition of a reality? What if things were not supposed to be as they are? What if, in some sense, we actually do "deserve" something better, or at least some answer other than "Shut up and take it in the neck"?

What if things are not as they should be because we are not as we were intended to be? What if things are screwed up, not because the universe is indifferent to our cry, but because we have been indifferent to God? What if the power that created this universe and all the order and design in it, the power which sustains the universe itself, has been severed from us? And what if we feel our orphaning, and so we aren't at all unrealistic when we say, "Something is screwed up here," or "something is not as it ought to be"?

I could go on, but perhaps I'll pause, because that proposition is more than enough for us to ponder, and I'm sure you'll have further thoughts on that.

Perhaps someone can screw up their self. An XYZ twist in the post?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:02 pm Perhaps someone can screw up their self.

I don't doubt they can. Most of the bad things that happen to us are products of somebody's bad decision -- and often, of our own.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:32 pm ... suppose things are "out of sorts," just as everybody's intuition seems to be telling them. In an accidental universe, the fact that we all feel that would surely be a rather odd thing, don't you think? How could things "ought to be" other than what they actually are? The universe's accidents aligned things in just this way; and here, on some chance mudball in one corner of the universe, a bunch of beings who probably rightfully shouldn't exist, since the odds are all against their existing at all, suddenly appear and say, "Hey, this is not alright!"

What can they mean? The universe is what the universe is. What could cause them to think they somehow "deserve" more or other than they have? ...

It's obvious to anyone who opens their eyes or is willing to think and not trust their feelings and irrational, "intuition." It is much nicer to believe all one's problems and failures are not one's own fault, and to blame everything on the universe, the nature they were born with, their social or financial conditions, their culture, their genetics, their evolution, their inexplicable desires and feelings, chemicals in the brain, or their, "sinful nature." When every religious teacher, philosopher, psychologist and sociologist is teaching them their problems are caused by something other than their own choices and behavior and their own refusal to do all they possibly can to use all their abilites and resources to learn all they can, think as well as they can, and work as hard as the can to produce all the can of real objective value, they rush to believe it, especially when they are taught, no matter how worthless or useless they are, they are still important and, "their lives matter."

There is hardly a person in the world today that does not believe he has a claim on things he never produced or provided himself by his own effort, from a, "nice, safe, secure life," to free education and health care, or even food and shelter--just because he exists--and he will stamp his foot insisting he has a, "right," to those things.

Of course he thinks there is something wrong with a universe that does not cater to his every whim and desire and is difficult, risky, and demanding. It's what he's been taught practically from the day he was born. There is nothing strange at all about the fact it is what most people think. It's just another of the endless foolish things people believe. It's what you believe. It's just not true.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:45 am ...every religious teacher, philosopher, psychologist and sociologist is teaching them their problems are caused by something other than their own choices and behavior

Actually, that's not even remotely true.

Plenty of people, including teachers, philosophers, sociologists and all that, both know and declare that a great amount of misery can be occasioned by one's own "choices and behaviour." It's in no way a witty, perceptive of daring observation to say that some is. It's a trivial observation. No kudos to you for that.

However, any sensible person is also aware that not all suffering is of that type. And statistically, not even most. For there are also a great many people who have not even had "choices" about their situation at all. Some were born into poverty, not allowed an education, have no resources to speak of, and live for subsistence from day to day. Some were born handicapped. Some were born into cruel societies, or dictatorships, where men, women and children are routinely brutalized through no fault of their own. Some have genetic conditions that will cause them degenerative diseases or early death.

There are myriad reasons why people suffer, and "choices and behaviours" form only a part of those. And it's not surprising for a person to know that either: both "choices and behaviours" AND other circumstances that are not the sufferer's fault at all comprise the misery there is in this world.

But you know that. Transparently, you're merely trolling.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:18 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:45 am ...every religious teacher, philosopher, psychologist and sociologist is teaching them their problems are caused by something other than their own choices and behavior

Actually, that's not even remotely true.

Plenty of people, including teachers, philosophers, sociologists and all that, both know and declare that a great amount of misery can be occasioned by one's own "choices and behaviour." It's in no way a witty, perceptive of daring observation to say that some is. It's a trivial observation. No kudos to you for that.

However, any sensible person is also aware that not all suffering is of that type. And statistically, not even most. For there are also a great many people who have not even had "choices" about their situation at all. Some were born into poverty, not allowed an education, have no resources to speak of, and live for subsistence from day to day. Some were born handicapped. Some were born into cruel societies, or dictatorships, where men, women and children are routinely brutalized through no fault of their own. Some have genetic conditions that will cause them degenerative diseases or early death.

There are myriad reasons why people suffer, and "choices and behaviours" form only a part of those. And it's not surprising for a person to know that either: both "choices and behaviours" AND other circumstances that are not the sufferer's fault at all comprise the misery there is in this world.

But you know that. Transparently, you're merely trolling.

Of course I agree with Immanuel Can! I want to attach what he said to the topic children wanting to be something they genetically are not.

There are some genetic conditions that cause suffering and death regardless of what 'society' deems proper. Other conditions cause suffering and even death because of what 'society' deems proper. Obviously in the latter case it is society that is wrong not what the child genetically inherited.

Take Down's syndrome for instance. In the recent past it was common for this condition to be a disability at any level. Now, we view Down's syndrome as a form of able in an less usual way. Body dysmorphia is similar if it is properly addressed as we should address it. We should allow children to be what they feel they are. It is wrong of 'society' to claim that an individual has to have a certain sort of physical appearance before they can be permitted to behave in a certain way.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:18 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:45 am ...every religious teacher, philosopher, psychologist and sociologist is teaching them their problems are caused by something other than their own choices and behavior

Actually, that's not even remotely true.

Plenty of people, including teachers, philosophers, sociologists and all that, both know and declare that a great amount of misery can be occasioned by one's own "choices and behaviour." It's in no way a witty, perceptive of daring observation to say that some is. It's a trivial observation. No kudos to you for that.

However, any sensible person is also aware that not all suffering is of that type. And statistically, not even most. For there are also a great many people who have not even had "choices" about their situation at all. Some were born into poverty, not allowed an education, have no resources to speak of, and live for subsistence from day to day. Some were born handicapped. Some were born into cruel societies, or dictatorships, where men, women and children are routinely brutalized through no fault of their own. Some have genetic conditions that will cause them degenerative diseases or early death.

There are myriad reasons why people suffer, and "choices and behaviours" form only a part of those. And it's not surprising for a person to know that either: both "choices and behaviours" AND other circumstances that are not the sufferer's fault at all comprise the misery there is in this world.

But you know that. Transparently, you're merely trolling.

Anyone who does not agree with your mystical world view and superstitious notions of a universe contingent on some ineffable supernatural "behind the scenes," manipulator of reality is now a troll. Well, then, I'm a troll.

The primary difference between my views and yours is, I have no desire to change what anyone else chooses to believe (I'm not pushing any agenda or ideology) only expressing my view while your whole purpose is to promote your own superstition, by intimidating those who reject it (you'll suffer forever in hell), and judging all those with other views as evil god-rejecting sinners.

It's in your interest to convince others their problems are not their own, that something else is the cause of all their suffering and disappointment in life. So you keep giving them excuses: "It's not your fault, you were born into poverty, not allowed an education, have no resources, were born handicapped, live in a cruel society, have genetic conditions, or a degenerative disease. Your case is hopeless. There's nothing you can do about it. Give up!"

So after presenting this cynical pessimistic view of reality it is easy put over the complimentary lie that reality is not supposed to be that way. That reality ought not require constant effort and excruciatingly ruthless attention and work, that life ought to be easy, painless, safe, and comfortable and that one deserves good things, just because they exist. So all those who have a religion, or social/political ideology, or simply want to, "rule the world," promise what reality cannot deliver. The religious promise their God will give them all the things they believe they want and, "have a right to," if one just accepts whatever any particular religious demands--just not in this life. The political promise the government will give them all the things they deserve and want if they just put them in power. The religious have the advantage because there is no way to see if their promise is actually kept.

Of course a world of people convinced they can do nothing for themselves flock to those who promise to do for them what they've been convinced they cannot do for themselves, especially when those making the promises also guarantee that embracing the religion or ideology not only will give one what reality denies, but will also make them virtuous.

When I was a teenager I had an insight about two views of life: that life is either something that happens to you or life is what you do. I am convinced that most people view of life is something that happens to them, but a rare few view their life as something they must achieve and accomplish. I am convinced that human nature does not make it possible for one to be truly happy and fulfilled as a human being, no matter how much they have or pleasure they enjoy, if they are not certain all they have and enjoy they have achieved and accomplished by their own effort.

Those few who view life as that which they must pursue and achieve include all those who have the very same, "handicaps," and, "disadvantages," as all others. There are millionaires who were born and raised in extreme poverty. Many of the most successful scientists and inventors in history had no formal education. I personally know many who were born physically, "handicapped," who not only achieved successful lives but excelled at everything they worked at. I grew up with a young man who only had one arm and one leg, the others lost to a trolley car that ran over him when very young. He played baseball, rode a bike, excelled in school and became a very successful business man running a diving school and selling diving equipment. There are thousands of individuals born in oppressive and cruel societies that escaped them and became very successful. There is not a single genetic condition or degenerative disease (except those that make conscious choice impossible) that some have not overcome to live successfully.

They are all exceptional, because they are not gullible enough to believe the lie promoted by all religions and ideologies that pervades all societies, that reality is evil and one cannot be anything other than a failure. It is not possible to change others and wrong to try, but I will continue to write for those few who know their life is worth living and aspire to more than mere existence, who seek to achieve and be all they can be and can never be satisfied with anything less than the best they are capable of in all things both physical and intellectual.

Trolling to inspire!

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am There are some genetic conditions that cause suffering and death regardless of what 'society' deems proper. Other conditions cause suffering and even death because of what 'society' deems proper.

What are you talking about. Society is just other people and what other people think has nothing to do with genetic conditions or their consequences. This desire to turn everything into some kind of, "social issue," is a disease.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Take Down's syndrome for instance. In the recent past it was common for this condition to be a disability at any level.

Down's syndrome hasn't changed. If it was a disability it still is. If some cases are not disabilities they never were. You are just talking about some people's opinion, not facts.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Body dysmorphia is similar if it is properly addressed as we should address it.

Who's, "we?" If you don't have it, it's none of your business how those who have it choose to deal with it.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am We should allow children to be what they feel they are. It is wrong of 'society' to claim that an individual has to have a certain sort of physical appearance before they can be permitted to behave in a certain way.

Again, if they aren't your children, it's none of your business. But I suppose if you had a son who felt he was superman and wanted to jump off the roof to prove he could fly, you'd let him.

Good grief!

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:17 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am There are some genetic conditions that cause suffering and death regardless of what 'society' deems proper. Other conditions cause suffering and even death because of what 'society' deems proper.

What are you talking about. Society is just other people and what other people think has nothing to do with genetic conditions or their consequences. This desire to turn everything into some kind of, "social issue," is a disease.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Take Down's syndrome for instance. In the recent past it was common for this condition to be a disability at any level.

Down's syndrome hasn't changed. If it was a disability it still is. If some cases are not disabilities they never were. You are just talking about some people's opinion, not facts.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Body dysmorphia is similar if it is properly addressed as we should address it.

Who's, "we?" If you don't have it, it's none of your business how those who have it choose to deal with it.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am We should allow children to be what they feel they are. It is wrong of 'society' to claim that an individual has to have a certain sort of physical appearance before they can be permitted to behave in a certain way.

Again, if they aren't your children, it's none of your business. But I suppose if you had a son who felt he was superman and wanted to jump off the roof to prove he could fly, you'd let him.

Good grief!

You are an expert in what is none of your business. Everyone's posts seem to be your business.

RCSaunders wrote:

Take Down's syndrome for instance. In the recent past it was common for this condition to be a disability at any level.

Down's syndrome hasn't changed. If it was a disability it still is. If some cases are not disabilities they never were. You are just talking about some people's opinion, not facts.

But "disabled " is one evaluations and "alternatively abled" is another evaluation.There are good reasons to revise how you and I evaluate compared with how we evaluated in past times.

Body dysmorphia is similar if it is properly addressed as we should address it.

Who's, "we?" If you don't have it, it's none of your business how those who have it choose to deal with it.

We includes you and I. You and I and others ascribe values to subjective and objective phenomena.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:09 pm Anyone who does not agree with your mystical world view ...Well, then, I'm a troll.

No, you're a troll because there isn't anybody who doesn't know that a great deal of suffering is not a result of the sufferer's choices, and you're pretending not to know that.

Or if you actually don't know that, then your experience of the world is pretty paltry, and you need to get out of the house more.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:35 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:17 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am There are some genetic conditions that cause suffering and death regardless of what 'society' deems proper. Other conditions cause suffering and even death because of what 'society' deems proper.

What are you talking about. Society is just other people and what other people think has nothing to do with genetic conditions or their consequences. This desire to turn everything into some kind of, "social issue," is a disease.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Take Down's syndrome for instance. In the recent past it was common for this condition to be a disability at any level.

Down's syndrome hasn't changed. If it was a disability it still is. If some cases are not disabilities they never were. You are just talking about some people's opinion, not facts.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am Body dysmorphia is similar if it is properly addressed as we should address it.

Who's, "we?" If you don't have it, it's none of your business how those who have it choose to deal with it.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 am We should allow children to be what they feel they are. It is wrong of 'society' to claim that an individual has to have a certain sort of physical appearance before they can be permitted to behave in a certain way.

Again, if they aren't your children, it's none of your business. But I suppose if you had a son who felt he was superman and wanted to jump off the roof to prove he could fly, you'd let him.

Good grief!

You are an expert in what is none of your business. Everyone's posts seem to be your business.

If you don't know the difference between analyzing a viewpoint and interfering in others lives you deserve the consequences. I am interested in all ideas, but have no interest in changing anyone else's ideas or changing what they choose to think, believe or do. It is my business to enjoy the freedom of expressing my observation that most people want to force their views and values on others, which I happen to think is wrong. I'm sorry if that offends you.