Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:32 pm But I do notice that everyone's dropped the "racism" explanation.

Racism isn't explanatory - it's descriptive.

America is a racist country. And I live in ex-Apartheid central.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 pm systemic racism

No such thing exists. "Systems" can't be racist. They can be well or badly organized, fair or unfair in their outcomes; but being impersonal "systems," they are inherently devoid of all intention and malice, and they are utterly incapable of being racist.

Only people can be racist. And the first quality of a racist is his/her insistence that "race" is a real thing.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:32 pm But I do notice that everyone's dropped the "racism" explanation.

Funny, that. I wonder what they realized...

They realised that you will explain away each event individually, while the whole point of systemic racism is that's evident more from the patterns within the data rather than the individual actions (the simple statistical fact of excess danger faced by black men that white men don't face when encountering the police), and so that conversation isn't worth having with you.

there is no systemic or institutional bigotry in 'murica

you, across the drink, can only read about 'murica (and whoever it is you're readin' is ignorant or just flat-out lyin')

me, I live here

what we do have in 'murica: the disparity industry...these are the folks who make a livin' rantin' & cryin'' about about nonexistent systemic injustice...they take single events and skew them to make it seem as though those events are part of a greater evil...and they get paid for it

to be clear: I'm not denyin' there are bigots, I'm sayin' there is no systemic bigotry

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:17 pm No such thing exists. "Systems" can't be racist. They can be well or badly organized, fair or unfair in their outcomes; but being impersonal "systems," they are inherently devoid of all intention and malice, and they are utterly incapable of being racist.

Systems amplify human intent. That's literally why we build them.

If a system doesn't encode intent it doesn't do anything.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:57 pm seems odd to me: if bad cops are such a plague, why isn't there more reportin' on the subject?

here, in 'murica, the press is overwhelmingly opposed to law enforcers, goin' out of their way to paint all cops as dirty and abusive; the press is self-incentivised to find, and publicly try, bad cops

so: where's all the reportin'?

seems to me: the news ought to dominated daily by reports of bad cops...but it isn't

no, most of the time, in 'murica, the daily coverage has nuthin' to do with bad cops, which, of course, is why -- even without press hyperbole -- the rare, legit, report of a bad cop is startlin'

the same applies to all this systemic bigotry: if there's so much of it, then why does the press, who lives & breathes to report such things, not report it?

they don't cuz it doesn't exist

what they do is glom onto single events and engage in hourly, daily, weekly skewed interpretation of those single, unrelated events

they create connective tissue

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:34 pm the same applies to all this systemic bigotry: if there's so much of it, then why does the press, who lives & breathes to report such things, not report it?

Because the phenomenon isn't overt and obvious at that scale.

That's literally what "systemic problem" means.

A systemic problem is a problem due to issues inherent in the overall system, rather than due to a specific, individual, isolated factor.

It's the kind of problem you examine by stepping back. Not by looking at it through a microscope.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:34 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:57 pm seems odd to me: if bad cops are such a plague, why isn't there more reportin' on the subject?

here, in 'murica, the press is overwhelmingly opposed to law enforcers, goin' out of their way to paint all cops as dirty and abusive; the press is self-incentivised to find, and publicly try, bad cops

so: where's all the reportin'?

seems to me: the news ought to dominated daily by reports of bad cops...but it isn't

no, most of the time, in 'murica, the daily coverage has nuthin' to do with bad cops, which, of course, is why -- even without press hyperbole -- the rare, legit, report of a bad cop is startlin'

the same applies to all this systemic bigotry: if there's so much of it, then why does the press, who lives & breathes to report such things, not report it?

they don't cuz it doesn't exist

what they do is glom onto single events and engage in hourly, daily, weekly skewed interpretation of those single, unrelated events

they create connective tissue

That's right. Dead on.

And here's the most important feature of "systemic racism" -- it can never, never be eliminated. And the racist SJW's want that. They want a perpetual, unlocatable enemy...one that they can claim forever, and requires them to produce no proof, and cannot be destroyed by being resolved. That will allow them to regard themselves as relevant forever, and as virtuous forever. They want an unsolvable problem.

As Ben Shapiro has astutely pointed out, "If you tell me where racism is, I'll help you fight it. Let's eliminate it. But if you just say it's 'systemic,' then you've given us all nothing to fight. I don't know what to do with that."

He's right. And it's exactly what the Left wants to be the case: eternal racism. An enemy for always. And privilege for themselves, always.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:41 pm And here's the most important feature of "systemic racism" -- it can never, never be eliminated.

Is your family still in the cotton industry?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:38 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:34 pm the same applies to all this systemic bigotry: if there's so much of it, then why does the press, who lives & breathes to report such things, not report it?

Because the phenomenon isn't overt and obvious at that scale.

That's literally what "systemic problem" means.

A systemic problem is a problem due to issues inherent in the overall system, rather than due to a specific, individual, isolated factor.

It's the kind of problem you examine by stepping back. Not by looking at it through a microscope.

the end results of systemic bigotry wouldn't be subtle: blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc. bein' abused, denied, killed in droves would be plain

it ain't happenin'...there's no daily, weekly, monthly, yearly mass abuse/denial/killings of blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc.

it's horseshit, all of it

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm the end results of systemic bigotry wouldn't be subtle: blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc. bein' abused, denied, killed in droves would be plain

it ain't happenin'...there's no daily, weekly, monthly, yearly mass abuse/denial/killings of blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc.

it's horseshit, all of it

Only if we had instruments for abstract reasoning which could help us detect trends/patterns/outcomes that evade the naked eye...

Imagine we could amplify signal and reducing noise in data!

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:51 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm the end results of systemic bigotry wouldn't be subtle: blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc. bein' abused, denied, killed in droves would be plain

it ain't happenin'...there's no daily, weekly, monthly, yearly mass abuse/denial/killings of blacks, gays, trannies, disabled, etc.

it's horseshit, all of it

Only if we had instruments for abstract reasoning which could help us detect trends/patterns/outcomes that evade the naked eye...

we have an industry of trained researchers and investigators who, as I say, live & breathe to report about how bigoted 'murica is...they can't, cuz it isn't

they try, of course: as I say, they fixate on single events, create connective tissue between those events, hope and pray no one looks too closely at the tissue...they're aided by academics who write dense, jargon-filled texts that claim 'murica is bigoted (a claim they never exactly get around to provin' or evidencin')

like flash, you don't live here...all you got to go by is what you read (and, like flash, what you're readin' is manure)

I live here and I tell you there is no systemic bigotry in 'murica

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:32 pm But I do notice that everyone's dropped the "racism" explanation.

Funny, that. I wonder what they realized...

They realised that you will explain away each event individually, while the whole point of systemic racism is that's evident more from the patterns within the data rather than the individual actions (the simple statistical fact of excess danger faced by black men that white men don't face when encountering the police), and so that conversation isn't worth having with you.

I haven’t dealt with data patterns in a long time, so please let me know if I’ve got this right:

If the rate that black men are victims of police brutality is higher than the rate for white men, then that means that black men are more likely to be victims of police brutality than whites, even if the raw number of blacks experiencing brutality is smaller than the raw number of whites.

And if the only difference between the two groups is their respective race, then race is the reason that blacks are more likely than whites to be victims of police brutality.

And if race is the reason for the blacks being victims of police brutality more often than whites, then there must be racism in the system, even if we don’t see it when we look at individual incidents.

Please let me know if I am off base on this.

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:15 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:32 pm But I do notice that everyone's dropped the "racism" explanation.

Funny, that. I wonder what they realized...

They realised that you will explain away each event individually, while the whole point of systemic racism is that's evident more from the patterns within the data rather than the individual actions (the simple statistical fact of excess danger faced by black men that white men don't face when encountering the police), and so that conversation isn't worth having with you.

I haven’t dealt with data patterns in a long time, so please let me know if I’ve got this right:

If the rate that black men are victims of police brutality is higher than the rate for white men, then that means that black men are more likely to be victims of police brutality than whites, even if the raw number of blacks experiencing brutality is smaller than the raw number of whites.

And if the only difference between the two groups is their respective race, then race is the reason that blacks are more likely than whites to be victims of police brutality.

And if race is the reason for the blacks being victims of police brutality more often than whites, then there must be racism in the system, even if we don’t see it when we look at individual incidents.

Please let me know if I am off base on this.

That's more or less it, yes. This conversation looks to be happening entirely among white men and thus we are fetishising the issue and just talking about black people getting killed. Anyone here who actually knows any black people, and this applies as much in the UK where our cops don't murder people with the impunity of their American counterparts, can tell you that they all know how much more likely they are to be stopped by the police and randomly searched, how much more likely it is that they will "match the description", and so on.

The numbers are there to back their perception up, the cops do target black folks. If you are black, your chances of being killed by the cops are 3.23 times those of your white neighbours. Over here, where the cops don't shoot people often enough for statistically useful results on that sort of analysis, they do still kick the crap out of you when they arrest you, especially if you are black.

Same as if you know any muslims who look the part and have passed through an American airport this century, they can tell you how likely it is that they will be "randomly selected" for the TSA groin feeling experience and the "routine questioning" at immigration control.

And black men get 20% longer prison sentences for similar crimes to white people too.

There is no honest way to arrive at an assessment that we don't have systems which place black people at a disadvantage and place them in danger as a result. It's improved since the days when we used to keep them as slaves, and when it was legal to refuse to let them live in certain neighbourhoods and all that Jim Crow nastiness. But if we're lying to ourselves about all that being completely over and done with now, the numbers don't back this story up at all.

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:15 pm If the rate that black men are victims of police brutality is higher than the rate for white men, then that means that black men are more likely to be victims of police brutality than whites, even if the raw number of blacks experiencing brutality is smaller than the raw number of whites.

No.

It has to be calculated per capita, or you don't know whether the higher number of one pool versus the other is due to the one pool being bigger for some other reason. So, for example, if it turns out that more Chinese commit crimes than Hispanics, and equivalently more Chinese are shot, then that's not surprising...it would be equivalent.

Here's some better facts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQCQFH5wOJo&t=78s It's quick and easy to watch.

...blacks are more likely than whites to be victims of police brutality.

Statistically, they are not. Cops are actually more hesitant to shoot a person of colour, for obvious reasons...they get pilloried if they get it wrong, or even when they get it right.

Please let me know if I am off base on this.

A fair request. Thanks for being willing to think things through, instead of just holding a position ideologically. That speaks well of your intelligence and fairness.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:11 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:15 pm If the rate that black men are victims of police brutality is higher than the rate for white men, then that means that black men are more likely to be victims of police brutality than whites, even if the raw number of blacks experiencing brutality is smaller than the raw number of whites.

No.

It has to be calculated per capita, or you don't know whether the higher number of one pool versus the other is due to the one pool being bigger for some other reason. So, for example, if it turns out that more Chinese commit crimes than Hispanics, and equivalently more Chinese are shot, then that's not surprising...it would be equivalent.

Here's some better facts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQCQFH5wOJo&t=78s It's quick and easy to watch.

...blacks are more likely than whites to be victims of police brutality.

Statistically, they are not. Cops are actually more hesitant to shoot a person of colour, for obvious reasons...they get pilloried if they get it wrong, or even when they get it right.

Please let me know if I am off base on this.

A fair request. Thanks for being willing to think things through, instead of just holding a position ideologically. That speaks well of your intelligence and fairness.

Black criminals are more likely to resist arrest and are therefore more likely to be met with force by the Police. This is because the Liberal/Media/Politicians have put Paranoid Delusions of Police Brutality in their Minds for decades. The damage is done. It will take many years to educate and erase these Paranoid Delusions.