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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:32 pm
by Arising_uk
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
and there it is...
There what is Bill? That this Truth is always hidden from us?
I think many upon this thread, and that includes Satyr, think your quest misguided as 'our' conclusion is that 'truth' is what we make of reality, not that there is a Truth hiding out there.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:55 pm
by Bill Wiltrack
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...the truth is here, all around us, we just can't capture it in our minds without destroying it.
We, our make-up is what is stopping us from seeing the truth. It's us.
That is the answer, revealed upon the 300th post on this thread.
There it is.
And here we are.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:34 am
by Arising_uk
So you believe in some kind of 'original sin' with respect to 'our make-up'?
You think that if we could re-design ourselves some Truth would mysteriously appear from the shadows?
What would it be about?
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:03 am
by Bill Wiltrack
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Man is not designed by nature to understand or to consciously know truth.
If we can silence our mind and focus upon self-consciousness, like some Zen Monks, perhaps, for a brief time we can experience some kind of truth.
We cannot speak the truth.
We cannot reach the truth by associative thought.
So if you want me to pursue this line of thinking I'll tell you up front, it will be just as fruitless and unsatisfying as the boring waste of time you experienced earlier within this thread...only without the mindless degrading you seem to need.
.................................
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:12 am
by chaz wyman
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Man is not designed by nature to understand or to consciously know truth.
This would seem to be evident.
The biggest problem of design by nature is that it is not guided TO anything in particular. Anything goes, as long as it survives.
Maybe the best answer as to why we cannot see whatever the truth is supposed to be is due to this very problem.
Religion persists because is does. For it to be rejected by humans, it would have to damage the reproductive or survival capacity of individuals that are wont to pass the delusion on to their children. As religion seems to enhance the reproductive capacity, it tends to keep going.
If we can silence our mind and focus upon self-consciousness, like some Zen Monks, perhaps, for a brief time we can experience some kind of truth.
It think we need to escape the confines of our mind and continually examine, challenge, verify and falsify all claims to truth. That means keep up close and personal with cold hard, gritty reality.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:16 am
by Bill Wiltrack
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Thank you Chaz.
As always, I appreciate your insight, your ability to articulate, and your focus in moving threads forward.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:48 am
by Arising_uk
Bill Wiltrack wrote:Man is not designed by nature to understand or to consciously know truth.
You'd know this is the Truth how Bill?
If we can silence our mind and focus upon self-consciousness, like some Zen Monks, perhaps, for a brief time we can experience some kind of truth.
You'd know this Truth how Bill? Because you've read it or heard it from someone? Or because you've done the Yoga, abandoned possessions, embraced the Four Noble Truths and are walking the Eightfold Path?
We cannot speak the truth.
We cannot reach the truth by associative thought.
We know this Bill, Wittgenstein told us, he also told us we can be shown it and its not an 'a' or 'the' Truth Bill.
So if you want me to pursue this line of thinking I'll tell you up front, it will be just as fruitless and unsatisfying as the boring waste of time you experienced earlier within this thread...only without the mindless degrading you seem to need.
Did I say it was boring? I suppose so but that'll be the parts where I responded to degradation in kind, not the parts where something was obviously being discussed.
I appreciate your honesty about it being a waste of time but I unlike you I live in hope.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:38 am
by creativesoul
Pick up yer Bible Arising...
God/Truth is unknowable.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:15 am
by Bill Wiltrack
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Be still and know...
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:44 am
by chaz wyman
Arising_uk wrote:Bill Wiltrack wrote:Man is not designed by nature to understand or to consciously know truth.
You'd know this is the Truth how Bill?
Not being designed to see truth does not preclude us from actually seeing it.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:45 am
by chaz wyman
creativesoul wrote:Pick up yer Bible Arising...
God/Truth is unknowable.
If God/Truth (whatever the fuck that it) is unknowable, then there is precious little point picking up a books of fables that is thousands of years old.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:09 am
by Arising_uk
Bill Wiltrack wrote:Be still and know
Deep.
I agree meditation is good for one. What type do you do?
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:51 pm
by chaz wyman
Arising_uk wrote:Bill Wiltrack wrote:Be still and know
Deep.
I agree meditation is good for one. What type do you do?
But in terms of seeing the truth its about as good as sticking hot needles in your eyes.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:42 pm
by creativesoul
I was being sarcastic chaz. It seems that we agree on the uselessness of claiming that 1. God's will is unknowable 2. God's will is the Truth.
Truth has nothing to do with the concept of God, other than it's being necessarily presupposed within such a belief.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:15 pm
by chaz wyman
creativesoul wrote:I was being sarcastic chaz. It seems that we agree on the uselessness of claiming that 1. God's will is unknowable 2. God's will is the Truth.
Truth has nothing to do with the concept of God, other than it's being necessarily presupposed within such a belief.
I think we can agree on the uselessness of any sentence "God's ...."
However I don't think God was specifically related to Bill's ideas about meditation.
Creative can keep is
one book to rule them all one book to find them, one book to gather them and in the darkness bind them