I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

[Belinda]

If someone says that they are an Islamophobe are they referring to Sunnis, Shias, Ahmadihyyas, or Sufis, or what ? In what way is a religion separable from its devotees?

[Arising_uk]

... Islamic nations tell the world exactly what Muslims do when they are in power, and it is not good for the rest of us. ...

Why? Are you living in an Islamic country then? If so and you don't like it move or get involved in revolution.

[Science Fan]

The reason why the best evidence of Islam's true nature is what is going on in Islamic nations is because this tells us exactly how Muslim majorities treat non-Muslim minorities. When Muslims are a minority, this does not tell us a whole lot about them, because, as minorities, they lack the political power to oppress the majority.

You can ignore the huge amount of evidence we have available to us from every single Islamic nation that exists now and has ever existed, which conclusively shows that at no time has any Muslim majority provided equal political rights to a non-Muslim minority, but, I'll stick with real evidence.

[attofishpi]

... Islamic nations tell the world exactly what Muslims do when they are in power, and it is not good for the rest of us. ...

Why? Are you living in an Islamic country then? If so and you don't like it move or get involved in revolution.

Fat load of good that did the Syrian people - barely managed to get things going when govt snipers started picking people off in the crowds, then followed by all out bombing of the civilians. Revolution doesn't happen anymore where those in control or with outside help have modern warfare capability.

[Arising_uk]

The reason why the best evidence of Islam's true nature is what is going on in Islamic nations is because this tells us exactly how Muslim majorities treat non-Muslim minorities. When Muslims are a minority, this does not tell us a whole lot about them, because, as minorities, they lack the political power to oppress the majority. ...

Well I've got no problem with the idea that all godbotherers are a nightmare to live under if they have the power and are the majority and that we'd be well rid of all of the loons.

You can ignore the huge amount of evidence we have available to us from every single Islamic nation that exists now and has ever existed, which conclusively shows that at no time has any Muslim majority provided equal political rights to a non-Muslim minority, but, I'll stick with real evidence.

Try sticking with real history then as no rulers in the past gave anyone 'political rights' at all but you will find that people from minorities, Jews mainly, achieved some very high positions when ruled over by Islam.

Whilst I agree that it looks like the godbotherers are back(fer fuks sake) and the world is going to go to shit with their idiot conflicts I think you ought to pay more attention as to why Islamic fundamentalism has risen, why the worlds poorest are flocking to Islam and what role the 'christian' west has played if you really want to address the issues that lead young men to strap on bombs and kill themselves.

[Immanuel Can]

If someone says that they are an Islamophobe are they referring to Sunnis, Shias, Ahmadihyyas, or Sufis, or what ? In what way is a religion separable from its devotees?

The problem is that an "Islamophobe" isn't a real thing. That's why nobody's going to call themselves that. A "phobia" is, by definition, an irrational fear, usually one indicating mental imbalance on the part of the experiencer: so who's going to say, "I'm a mentally unbalanced person, who fears Islam for no good reason"?

"Islamophobia" is a faux construction of the Left. It's their way of attempting to silence anyone who expresses a reasonable reservation about the things Islam actually teaches its people to do. It's not intended to reflect reality. It's a Leftie way of saying, "You have no right to speak" to anyone who criticizes Islam. That's all.

The right way to talk is simply to say that some people have legitimate, principled antipathies to Sharia, and to the "religion" that promotes it. If the Left was interested in truth, that's the way they'd speak too.

[Immanuel Can]

The reason why the best evidence of Islam's true nature is what is going on in Islamic nations is because this tells us exactly how Muslim majorities treat non-Muslim minorities. When Muslims are a minority, this does not tell us a whole lot about them, because, as minorities, they lack the political power to oppress the majority.

You can ignore the huge amount of evidence we have available to us from every single Islamic nation that exists now and has ever existed, which conclusively shows that at no time has any Muslim majority provided equal political rights to a non-Muslim minority, but, I'll stick with real evidence.

Yeah, it's pretty darn empirically clear, isn't it. Well said.

[Arising_uk]

Yeah, it's pretty darn empirically clear, isn't it. Well said.

Not it's not and no it wasn't. But then again you're a born-again christian godbotherer so we get where you're coming from.

[Arising_uk]

"Islamophobia" is a faux construction of the Left. ...

There's some truth here but the reason why it's been used is that on any rational analysis of risk to a person living in the west Islam poses fuck all of a threat to an individuals well-being so if they are unduly concerned to the point of having a fear then it is a phobia.

It's their way of attempting to silence anyone who expresses a reasonable reservation about the things Islam actually teaches its people to do. It's not intended to reflect reality. It's a Leftie way of saying, "You have no right to speak" to anyone who criticizes Islam. That's all.

Again, I get your point but then I remember that the Bible says your 'God' is going to slaughter everyone who doesn't kowtow when 'it' returns and put christians in charge and rule the rest of us with a rod of iron.

The right way to talk is simply to say that some people have legitimate, principled antipathies to Sharia, and to the "religion" that promotes it. If the Left was interested in truth, that's the way they'd speak too.

People can live how they wish to live in their country would be the christian response I'd have thought? Does liberal secular democracy trump religion now in your world?

[Seleucus]

Blah blah blah.

If that is the best counter-argument you can think up, I think I will leave it there.

I have a relatively important meeting in forty-five minutes so I'll keep this brief.

In standard counseling theory there are three things we want to stick to:

1. objective facts
2. our feelings and needs
3. doable requests

And one thing we want to avoid:

- interpretation

Don't think I didn't notice all along that you:

1. snipped out and didn't respond to my narrative of caliphate history, the narrative of Indonesian history, the 2011 and 2013 Pew and World Value surveys and the Pact of Umar.

2. snipped out and didn't respond to my personal concerns over my ID and documents or my celebration of someone I know dearly who won't be fasting this Ramadan.

3. snipped out and didn't respond to my list of doable actions and polices I will be taking and supporting.

- Instead you are replying with interpretation, i,e "blah blah blah". Let's have a healthy discussion, not play mind games.

[Arising_uk]

Fat load of good that did the Syrian people - barely managed to get things going when govt snipers started picking people off in the crowds, then followed by all out bombing of the civilians. Revolution doesn't happen anymore where those in control or with outside help have modern warfare capability.

In the case of Syria it wouldn't have happened at all if the West hadn't been playing the great game and now look what's happened. Same for Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Yemen, et al.

Democracy doesn't come from the barrel of a gun nor often from outside help. It comes from the people just refusing and civil resistance. Look at what started it all in the ME, Tunisia, and for how technology and social media are good political weapons when backed with intent.

[Seleucus]

Fat load of good that did the Syrian people - barely managed to get things going when govt snipers started picking people off in the crowds, then followed by all out bombing of the civilians. Revolution doesn't happen anymore where those in control or with outside help have modern warfare capability.

In the case of Syria it wouldn't have happened at all if the West hadn't been playing the great game and now look what's happened. Same for Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Yemen, et al.

In philosophical terms, Obama and allies had been reading too much Montaigne and not enough de Maistre. It was expected that when the dictatorial governments of the ME and North Africa were overthrown the people would choose freedom and democracy. But the people turned out not to be blank slates and noble savages who easily re-set, instead they did not want to give up their cultural identity, they voted for and supported the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS, those dictatorships had been preventing radial Islam from taking over. As it turns out, "there is no such thing in the world as Man. In the course of my life, I have seen Frenchmen, Italians, Russians, etc.". These events mark the end of the Enlightenment project.

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

the things Islam actually teaches its people to do.

I understand that Imams in European and American mosques actually teach an interpretation of the holy scriptures which is indistinguishable in ethical content from other legal and mainstream religions. I expect that in America as in Britain it's illegal for imams or anyone else to preach subversive doctrines ; sharia law is a doctrine as well as a form of law.

The right way to talk is simply to say that some people have legitimate, principled antipathies to Sharia, and to the "religion" that promotes it. If the Left was interested in truth, that's the way they'd speak too.

It's safe to presume that the Left is interested in truth. I am left wing by nature and I am interested in truth especially truth in the form of reality. I presume that you yourself, Immanuel, are interested in truth so why would you presume otherwise about me?

As to to your first sentence I agree. I also agree with you about the nature of 'Islamophobia'. However what you say is not all that Islamophobia is. Islamophobia is also a particular expression of general distrust of strangers.

[Seleucus]

Immanuel Can wrote:

the things Islam actually teaches its people to do.

I understand that Imams in European and American mosques actually teach an interpretation of the holy scriptures which is indistinguishable in ethical content from other legal and mainstream religions. I expect that in America as in Britain it's illegal for imams or anyone else to preach subversive doctrines ; sharia law is a doctrine as well as a form of law.

I don't understand what you mean here? Or are you just unaware that hundreds if not thousands of imams are being investigated, arrested and denied visas for anti-Semitic hate-speech, inciting violence, and supporting terrorist organizations?

One thing I will tell you, as I'm assuming you don't often go to Friday prayers, is the major rhetorical style of imams is Hitlerian. It is enraged and ranting. This is common all over the place, not just in the mosques that surround my home and I must endure ruining the peace of my Friday mornings. You probably would have found this in the old fire-and-brimstone days coming from Christian pulpits too?

[Belinda]

Seleucus wrote:

I don't understand what you mean here? Or are you just unaware that hundreds if not thousands of imams are being investigated, arrested and denied visas for anti-Semitic hate-speech, inciting violence, and supporting terrorist organizations?

One thing I will tell you, as I'm assuming you don't often go to Friday prayers, is the major rhetorical style of imams is Hitlerian. It is enraged and ranting. This is common all over the place, not just in the mosques that surround my home and I must endure ruining the peace of my Friday mornings. You probably would have found this in the old fire-and-brimstone days coming from Christian pulpits too?

Now you're talking empirical sense! I did not know this and have no personal experience of prayers at any mosque either in Britain or abroad.
The above is an enormous claim. The newspaper I read (Guardian) has given me the impression that the bad imams in Britain have been mopped up or at least are under investigation by the police, and that there has been a problem in the past anyway that some imams are imports from rural villages in the Indian sub- continent who lack modern application of Islam.

Are you referring to your domicile in some Islamic country, Seleucus? If you are referring to a country in the free world i.e. Europe and its Europeanised colonies please give references.