Philosophy Now Forum

Dubious wrote:I wonder if threads on predeterminism, determinism and free will are themselves determined, predetermined OR just plain all screwed up to the extent free will allows!

Yes, especially the last.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Show your reasoning! I won't hold my breath.

Errant conflation of concepts: foreknowledge and predetermination are not identical at all. You cannot have the latter without the former, but you can have the former without the latter.

This is a generally-recognized distinction in theology, by all sides. A little background reading on what Calvinists and Non-Calvinists actually argue would help you.

Will you do the reading? I won't hold my breath.

Immanuel Can wrote: I won't hold my breath.

Do you get a kick out of disappointing people?

Harbal wrote:Do you get a kick out of disappointing people?

I imagine it started at birth.

uwot wrote: I imagine it started at birth.

IC wasn't born, he was created by God, he said so himself.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Show your reasoning! I won't hold my breath.

Errant conflation of concepts: foreknowledge and predetermination are not identical at all. You cannot have the latter without the former, but you can have the former without the latter.

This is a generally-recognized distinction in theology, by all sides. A little background reading on what Calvinists and Non-Calvinists actually argue would help you.

Will you do the reading? I won't hold my breath.

Full of bluster - but as usual you avoid addressing the question.

ken wrote:
Could it be possible that free will and determinism both belong and exist maybe even equally

Free will definitely exists and anything that is inevitable or unavoidable is deterministic by definition
Whether they exist equally may be impossible to know given the number of variables in that equation

surreptitious57 wrote:

ken wrote:
Could it be possible that free will and determinism both belong and exist maybe even equally

Free will definitely exists and anything that is inevitable or unavoidable is deterministic by definition
Whether they exist equally may be impossible to know given the number of variables in that equation

What do you mean by free will? Free of or from what, exactly?

Hobbes Choice wrote:
What do you mean by free will? Free of or from what exactly?

The ability to choose between freely realisable alternatives so free from any restriction
Although only as it pertains to them so not free will in absolute terms only relative ones

surreptitious57 wrote:

ken wrote:
Could it be possible that free will and determinism both belong and exist maybe even equally

Free will definitely exists and anything that is inevitable or unavoidable is deterministic by definition
Whether they exist equally may be impossible to know given the number of variables in that equation

On the most basic simple fundamental level to Me they both exist. I do not see any number of variables so they exist equally.

It should be noted that just because an agent has free will there is no requirement for the agent to exercise free will. The actions can be perfectly consistent with determinism but does not rule out free will. Arguing from events proves nothing.

surreptitious57 wrote:

Hobbes Choice wrote:
What do you mean by free will? Free of or from what exactly?

The ability to choose between freely realisable alternatives so free from any restriction
Although only as it pertains to them so not free will in absolute terms only relative ones

And how do you choose?
If you had the time again, exactly would you choose the same thing?
If the entire universe is a process of cause and effect; what causes your choice?

thedoc wrote:It should be noted that just because an agent has free will there is no requirement for the agent to exercise free will. The actions can be perfectly consistent with determinism but does not rule out free will. Arguing from events proves nothing.

We can act to our will, but we are not free to will our will.
Our will must also be determined by all pertaining conditions.

Hobbes Choice wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

Hobbes Choice wrote:
What do you mean by free will? Free of or from what exactly?

The ability to choose between freely realisable alternatives so free from any restriction
Although only as it pertains to them so not free will in absolute terms only relative ones

And how do you choose?
If you had the time again exactly would you choose the same thing?
If the entire universe is a process of cause and effect what causes your choice?

You choose whichever is most preferable to you at the time
I would not choose exactly the same thing again if I had the knowledge of my original choices
Your choice is determined by the logical or emotional process which selects it over all others

thedoc wrote:It should be noted that just because an agent has free will there is no requirement for the agent to exercise free will. The actions can be perfectly consistent with determinism but does not rule out free will. Arguing from events proves nothing.

This is true.

If someone had free will, but did not exercise it in a particular circumstance (like, say, letting her parents choose her college or university and her program for her) this would not suggest she'd given up her power to will differently and regret allowing herself to be predetermined by them, nor would it hinder her ability to use her free will on other occasions.

In fact, no proponent of free will has to say that there aren't some choices that are predetermined. Not one of us got to choose our birthplace, our hair and eye colours, our gender, our athletic potential, our capacity for learning, our cultural location, and a host of other such factors. For our first year of life, almost every decision we made (but not all) was made on our behalf, since we were nearly totally dependent on others for survival.

Nobody doesn't know all that. Nobody can contest it. The only question is, what is the case with the rest of our decisions?