How To Tell Right From Wrong

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

Obvious Leo wrote:I was speaking of belief in the context of Russell's statement, which should be self-evident to anybody with the rudiments of English comprehension. In my view a belief in god is indistinguishable from a belief in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, astrology or the healing power of crystals.
That's easily explained by the very obvious fact that you really don't know what Christians are doing, any more than poor old Russell did. And that's okay: you can't be blamed for not knowing. But if you could find out, shouldn't you? At least, shouldn't you do so before believing Russell or jumping to any wildly off-base conclusions or issuing blanket condemnations?
It is a psychological crutch which serves to fulfill an inner psychological need. We all have such inner psychological vulnerabilities but I prefer to deal with mine by way of a calming toke of quality home-grown washed down with a glass of red. It's simply a matter of personal preference.
This is Freud's old saw. The problem with it is that it applies equally to Atheism. For if one argues that a person is a Christian out of some psychological need, one can say exactly the same for Atheism. It can be very soothing to believe that there is no God, and one can behave as one wishes; that there will never be a Judgment, and God will never call any of us to account for all the things we say and do, and that there is no Eternal State to follow. It makes everything here so light and temporary. I can easily see how that would fit a psychological yearning to escape apprehension and guilt.

So that argument is a complete wash, since it identifies nothing particular to religious belief. People like to believe what they find comforting: but so what? What does that say about the truth of their belief? Really, nothing.

And I can further understand completely that if one has lingering doubts about one's Atheism, it might well take the addition of a few brews and glasses or red to effect the sort of psychological consolation one requires. :D
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attofishpi
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by attofishpi »

Well said Immanuel Can!
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

Immanuel Can wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:Clearly Leo was talking about religious beliefs ...how do you not get that?
Actually, it's Leo who doesn't see that "belief" doesn't mean anything spooky or weird. It's an operation every person does every day.
OMG! Your brain is fried. Do you not see the mistake you are making here just to push your own agenda?

What is this called...beating a straw man?

You are trying to make it sound like leo meant something other than religion. And you are beating up on that argument he CLEARLY did not make. what you are doing is dishonest...it is throwing him under the bus.

Anyone here with a brain, no matter what argument you make....can see he meant 'RELIGIOUS" beliefs.

Do you really think he meant everyday thoughts are the same thing as religious thoughts? Come on!

If you really believe that, then it is clear you have a learning disability!


But here's a fun idea...which you won't understand anyway, but others might...

Let's say you are right, with your reasoning that:

When you get into an elevator, you're never 100% sure it won't plunge to the basement and kill all occupants. Such things have happened, and just because you rode the same elevator yesterday does not mean it's impossible for it to fail today. Your certainty about that is not 100%. But you believe the elevator won't fail, and so you trust it. And you're perfectly rational to do so.
So using your reasoning above, if belief is the rational thing to do....then you must think it rational to be a satan worshipper , or believe as Attofishy does...that...God is both good and bad and there is no satan. Or any other belief system out there for that matter.

You must accept all beliefs as rational if you want to make the claim that trust/faith in God is rational.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

artisticsolution wrote:Anyone here with a brain, no matter what argument you make....can see he meant 'RELIGIOUS" beliefs.
And you suppose that makes any difference? You share his confusion on that point?
Do you really think he meant everyday thoughts are the same thing as religious thoughts? Come on!
Oh, I see...you think the content would make a difference. No, no...we're talking about mechanism first. The mechanism is the same; we can justify the content later. But there's no use in us even trying to justify the content until we've settled on what is the appropriate mechanism.

And "believing" is merely a mechanism. Think of it like "walking." Walking is an action you can perform with reference to many things: you can walk to the store, you can walk home, you can walk to your sister's...but it's all walking. Now, there are legitimate places to "walk" and places you should probably never "walk": but WHERE you can walk is quite a secondary question to the mechanism of walking.

Until one realizes that "belief" of a Christian kind operates by precisely the same mechanism as "belief" in elevators, we can make no further progress in mutual understanding...which is surely the goal of conversation, no?
You must accept all beliefs as rational if you want to make the claim that trust/faith in God is rational.
No, that doesn't follow. What follows is that rationality is a mechanism we can legitimately employ with relation to mathematics, science experiments or God. The way we use it will be somewhat different in each case, and the subject matter will be different: but the mechanism will be the same.

After all, if you don't believe that rationality is an appropriate mechanism for talking about God, what exactly are you trying to do right now? :D
thedoc
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by thedoc »

Obvious Leo wrote: Most people manage to get through their lives without being burdened with any beliefs whatsoever but I see no evidence that they are any the less curious about the world around them than are believers.
Even accepting that this statement is only about religion, a belief in this context, would be some belief about God or some deity. Therefore even Atheists hold the belief that God does not exist, since a belief is without evidence, and there is no verifiable or repeatable evidence that God does or does not exist. So who are the people that do not have any beliefs at all?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

thedoc wrote:even Atheists hold the belief that God does not exist, since a belief is without evidence, and there is no verifiable or repeatable evidence that God does or does not exist. So who are the people that do not have any beliefs at all?
Great question. Astutely said. 8)
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote:even Atheists hold the belief that God does not exist, since a belief is without evidence, and there is no verifiable or repeatable evidence that God does or does not exist. So who are the people that do not have any beliefs at all?
Great question. Astutely said. 8)
Lol...and now you admit there is no evidence of a God. Now you admit that the only logical thing to do is be agnostic!
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

Immanuel Can wrote:
After all, if you don't believe that rationality is an appropriate mechanism for talking about God, what exactly are you trying to do right now? :D
Yes, but that is what I have been trying to get you to understand. ..that I can discuss anything I want to discuss. Whether it be about belief or disbelief. Are you able to understand that? Don't you see that it is entirely possible to have a discussion about the bible one day...and then a discussion about what an atheist believes the next ?

This in no way compromises you belief in a God. It is merely thinking an other thought. Which I guess leo is right that you cannot do, as you are taught it is against God to eat from the 'tree of knowledge". ;)

I was hoping to have an honest conversation about our beliefs and reference them using the bible. ( you refuse to do that as you refuse to explain why you believe a particular scripture's meaning.) I on the other hand have been forthright in using scripture to show why i believe what i do.

But all That is separate from what I am doing above by defending leo.. I am defending the the fact that belief in God is not the same as trusting an elevator will get you to the next floor of a building, because if it was the same, we would have the belief that an elevator could take us up to heaven.

THAT sir is how ridiculously absurd you sound.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

artisticsolution wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
After all, if you don't believe that rationality is an appropriate mechanism for talking about God, what exactly are you trying to do right now? :D
Yes, but that is what I have been trying to get you to understand. ..that I can discuss anything I want to discuss.
Of course you "can". You just can't always be rational when doing it. There are rules for that, of course. :D
Which I guess leo is right that you cannot do, as you are taught it is against God to eat from the 'tree of knowledge".
No clue about that either, I see. :wink:
I was hoping to have an honest conversation about our beliefs and reference them using the bible. ( you refuse to do that as you refuse to explain why you believe a particular scripture's meaning.) I on the other hand have been forthright in using scripture to show why i believe what i do.
I can't imagine what you're referring to. I've quoted the Bible a bunch...more than most people even like.

I get the feeling you want me to be a certain type of "religious" person. And you're kind of dismayed I'm not one of those, as you're really quite keen to tee off on them. But, of course, I can't represent a view I don't hold. So I can't be your sister's type, whatever that is. And there's no reason for me to pretend to be her type, because a) I don't know what it is, and b) I'm not it. :D
if it was the same, we would have the belief that an elevator could take us up to heaven.
I see logic never made it on on the ground floor. :wink: No, we're discussing mechanism. You're confusing it with content.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

artisticsolution wrote: of a God. Now you admit that the only logical thing to do is be agnostic!
I now get where you're coming from. Your sister, or whomever you're using as your reference point for "Christian," musts be a FIDEIST. A "fideist" is someone who believes that religious and secular belief have no overlaps at all, and that to "know" God you have to forsake any use of the mind and simply accept what you cannot possibly "know" beforehand.

That makes sense of the cheeky, offhanded remarks about faith. But sorry. Fideism is an extreme minority position in Christianity, a sort of lunatic fringe, not numerically or epistemologically representative of most Christians. You're wildly off track.

If you have any questions about Fideism, ask your sister, if she's one of them. However, I'm not one of those. :D
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Obvious Leo »

I would never step into an elevator believing that it won't crash to the ground. I have some knowledge of mechanical engineering and accept that there is always a finite possibility that exactly this will occur. I used to spend a substantial portion of my working life travelling around the world in aircraft and such thoughts regularly crossed my mind, although not pathologically so. We base our everyday risk assessments of the world we live in on the basis of our knowledge of this world, not on the basis of whatever beliefs we may or may not have formed about it.
thedoc wrote: Atheists hold the belief that God does not exist,
Bullshit. Atheists simply refuse to believe that god does exist, although I'll grant that there is often much confusion amongst theists who can't make the distinction.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Immanuel Can »

Obvious Leo wrote:Bullshit. Atheists simply refuse to believe that god does exist, although I'll grant that there is often much confusion amongst theists who can't make the distinction.
Ah, no...he's correct there, Leo. Though it is true that to say "I don't believe God exists" can mean two things, they're both problematic. It can mean either: 1) I refuse to believe God exists, or 2) I possess no evidence I know of pertaining to God, so I don't have reason to think He does.

# 2 is agnostic, but falls short of atheism -- God might still exist, even if I don't personally have evidence. #1 is atheistic, up to the challenge of concluding, but has the distinct disadvantage of being totally unprovable and totally irrational. "I refuse..." is an extremely dumb reason for anything...it's stubborn and anti-intellectual, unless justified explicitly on some basis -- and such a basis no atheist can provide. More to the point on this strand, atheism implies amorality. So "how to tell right from wrong" is one thing the atheist knows nothing about. He can only choose "right" by accident, since he has not the faintest shade of a plausible mechanism for doing so. He's simply a moral fraud, working madly to substitute his personal whims as if they were some sort of obligation upon others, but having no rationale at all for justifying such a move.

In the world of disbelief, those are the only two games in town. Pick your poison. :D
Obvious Leo
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Obvious Leo »

In the early days of Australian settlement it was regarded as a sport by many settlers to organise shooting parties on Sundays after church. These were hard-working, god-fearing folk of deep religious conviction who believed that they were doing god's work by ridding the continent of vermin. The vermin in question were the indigenous population of homo sapiens who had lived harmoniously on this continent for 60,000 years prior to European settlement. These people believed in no gods whatsoever and thus were not regarded as human.

Do you dare to suggest that the Christians were conforming to a higher morality than the godless heathen?
thedoc
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by thedoc »

artisticsolution wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote:even Atheists hold the belief that God does not exist, since a belief is without evidence, and there is no verifiable or repeatable evidence that God does or does not exist. So who are the people that do not have any beliefs at all?
Great question. Astutely said. 8)
Lol...and now you admit there is no evidence of a God. Now you admit that the only logical thing to do is be agnostic!

Is this news to you? You are really out of date, because most Christians I know don't claim to have proof of God that they can present to others. Most of the evidence that is divulged is meant only for the individual in question and not meant to convince anyone else. Is this the sort of thing they teach you in your Atheist Sunday school?
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

thedoc wrote:


Is this news to you? You are really out of date, because most Christians I know don't claim to have proof of God that they can present to others. Most of the evidence that is divulged is meant only for the individual in question and not meant to convince anyone else.
Ah yes..it is news to me.....I must be thinking about the Christian of the past....I keep forgetting they keep switching out what the Bible says in order to suit their own agenda as it is really hard to keep God's word, as is. :roll:
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