Philosophy Now Forum

Arising_uk wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:... There is nothing in Christianity that speaks of forgiving debt. ...

Well, apart from The Lords Prayer that is.

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
..."
Matthew 6.10 - 12
King James Bible.

Well, then, please point me to the nearesty Christian banker who will loan me money without the need for me to pay it back. There are all sorts of debts, not all of which are financial. Christians have been killing people for money since the beginning of their religion, so how is it that they allow debtors not to repay loans again? Do you really think the Christian is claiming that he owes money to god? That would be impossible. God does not make financial loans. So, the debt in the Lord's Prayer refers to some other wrong, like "sin," so God forgives the sinner, as the Christian forgives those who sin against them, that has nothing to do with money. In any event, please name the Christian bankers that don't want to be paid back, and I'll borrow money from them. Where are they?

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote: What is moral about filing bankruptcy anyway? The person owes the money, and when they don't pay it back, it's nothing less than legalized theft.

nonsense

if you agree to loan money in a jurisdiction where bankruptcy protection exists you are voluntarily assuming the risk of getting back little or nothing due to bankruptcy protection

theft by definition is something you do not consent to

People who set up liquor stores also assume the risk of being robbed, but that doesn't mean that it is okay. Bankruptcy is legalized theft. You are not paying back what it is owed. The law does not make the act moral, it is still an act of theft.

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:The Bible definitely helped to establish slavery in America, as the Bible condones slavery.

kind of

the bible forbids one to return runaway slaves to their master - deuteronomy 23:15-25

which would maintaining slavery as an institution difficult

Here's just one of a number of Christian passages that support slavery. "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

ForgedinHell wrote:Here's just one of a number of Christian passages that support slavery. "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

yes i know the bible i even teach sunday school and shit

one way to look at it as a straight out contradiction

however it is not possible to command someone to feel something and it is safe to assume that god does not give impossible commands

so the command to respect makes sense only if there master is worth respecting

otherwise the slave is presumably free to run away

and once again the bible is not a rulebook there is nothing in it suggesting it was ever intended as a rule book

it is a book of stories

they are stories inspired by god but they are stories not collections of rules or instructions

the idea that if hte bible is from god is must be obeyed literally - an idea that fundamentalists and atheists share - is just so fucking insane i dont have words to describe just how insane it is



so when we encounter contradictions in the bible there is no need to resolve them there is nothing to resolve

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:Here's just one of a number of Christian passages that support slavery. "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

yes i know the bible i even teach sunday school and shit

one way to look at it as a straight out contradiction

however it is not possible to command someone to feel something and it is safe to assume that god does not give impossible commands

so the command to respect makes sense only if there master is worth respecting

otherwise the slave is presumably free to run away

and once again the bible is not a rulebook there is nothing in it suggesting it was ever intended as a rule book

it is a book of stories

they are stories inspired by god but they are stories not collections of rules or instructions

the idea that if hte bible is from god is must be obeyed literally - an idea that fundamentalists and atheists share - is just so fucking insane i dont have words to describe just how insane it is



so when we encounter contradictions in the bible there is no need to resolve them there is nothing to resolve

The passage clearly states that slavery is okay. It doesn't qualify when to obey one's master. How would a slave even know from the above passage? No rules for any qualified obedience are given. If Christianity were really against slavery, every passage in Christianity would state slavery is immoral and shall be prohibited.

Love thy neighbor as oneself is a statement that people cannot live up to. Obeying one's master, in fear, that was something many slaves managed to do.

ForgedinHell wrote:Well, then, please point me to the nearesty Christian banker who will loan me money without the need for me to pay it back. There are all sorts of debts, not all of which are financial. Christians have been killing people for money since the beginning of their religion, so how is it that they allow debtors not to repay loans again? Do you really think the Christian is claiming that he owes money to god? That would be impossible. God does not make financial loans. So, the debt in the Lord's Prayer refers to some other wrong, like "sin," so God forgives the sinner, as the Christian forgives those who sin against them, that has nothing to do with money. In any event, please name the Christian bankers that don't want to be paid back, and I'll borrow money from them. Where are they?

What are you burbling about? You asked where in Christianity debt was mentioned and I showed you.

All you are pointing out is that those who profess themselves Christian and bankers aren't Christian, especially since usury was a sin, but 'God' bless the prods. Its this that caused the unfortunate position for the Jew who could lend money to the Christians but was then castigated for it. It also led them to found some of the largest richest banking families around. I'm unsure about the Moslem as I think that whilst they gave us the cheque I think they still avoid usury as a sin.

Personally I agree that Americas bankruptcy laws have assisted in the current crisis but they also have assisted the dynamism of the individual entrepreneur as no shame is associated with the failure of the business and they can borrow to try again. Over here until very recently bankruptcy was very shameful and it's make it hard to re-start a business. Of course I think it a bad thing that this is now being applied to personal rather than business finances.

ForgedinHell wrote: The passage clearly states that slavery is okay. It doesn't qualify when to obey one's master. How would a slave even know from the above passage? No rules for any qualified obedience are given.

the bible is not a book of rules

so anyone looking for an unequivocal statement on slavery would not find one in the bible

if you disagree with me please point me to the statement in the bible that states that it is a book of rules that must be obeyed literally

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote: The passage clearly states that slavery is okay. It doesn't qualify when to obey one's master. How would a slave even know from the above passage? No rules for any qualified obedience are given.

the bible is not a book of rules

so anyone looking for an unequivocal statement on slavery would not find one in the bible

if you disagree with me please point me to the statement in the bible that states that it is a book of rules that must be obeyed literally

If you want to ignore your Christian scripture, that's fine with me. I've previously made the point that most Christians in America are moral people precisely because they ignore the bad parts of their Bibles. And, I even stated a post that morality cannot come from the Bible. Christians use their own sense of morality to judge the statements in the Bible, and reject those they disagree with. If Christians did get their morals from the Bible, they would have to do whatever is in the Bible, whether they thought it was awful or not. But, since Christians do not get their morality from the Bible, then they cannot bad-mouth atheists and claim that we are without morals because we do not believe in a supernatural being.

However, the question does remain: If you are simply picking and choosing what you want to follow in the Bible, then why waste your time with it at all?

ForgedinHell wrote:And, I even stated a post that morality cannot come from the Bible.

of course not

an immoral person is not likely to change their ways just by reading the bible

and there are plenty of moral people who do not believe in god

but one may find it inspirational - but if you want to treat it as a book of rules governing all aspects - well, it is not a book of that

Christians use their own sense of morality to judge the statements in the Bible, and reject those they disagree with.

even if it were a set of moral rules our prior moral notions would strongly influence how we understand those rules

and no one - not even god - could come up with a book of rules that everyone would agree with in every single detail - that would be a logical impossibility

However, the question does remain: If you are simply picking and choosing what you want to follow in the Bible, then why waste your time with it at all?

the question is wrong

i do not believe the bible is a set of rules to 'follow'

if you try to do that the results will be ridiculous - did you read 'a year of living biblically'?

Arising_uk wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:Well, then, please point me to the nearesty Christian banker who will loan me money without the need for me to pay it back. There are all sorts of debts, not all of which are financial. Christians have been killing people for money since the beginning of their religion, so how is it that they allow debtors not to repay loans again? Do you really think the Christian is claiming that he owes money to god? That would be impossible. God does not make financial loans. So, the debt in the Lord's Prayer refers to some other wrong, like "sin," so God forgives the sinner, as the Christian forgives those who sin against them, that has nothing to do with money. In any event, please name the Christian bankers that don't want to be paid back, and I'll borrow money from them. Where are they?

What are you burbling about? You asked where in Christianity debt was mentioned and I showed you.

All you are pointing out is that those who profess themselves Christian and bankers aren't Christian, especially since usury was a sin, but 'God' bless the prods. Its this that caused the unfortunate position for the Jew who could lend money to the Christians but was then castigated for it. It also led them to found some of the largest richest banking families around. I'm unsure about the Moslem as I think that whilst they gave us the cheque I think they still avoid usury as a sin.

Personally I agree that Americas bankruptcy laws have assisted in the current crisis but they also have assisted the dynamism of the individual entrepreneur as no shame is associated with the failure of the business and they can borrow to try again. Over here until very recently bankruptcy was very shameful and it's make it hard to re-start a business. Of course I think it a bad thing that this is now being applied to personal rather than business finances.

No, what I am pointing out is your feeble-minded hypocrisy. If only you were a tad bit smarter, you would realize how stupid you are.

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:And, I even stated a post that morality cannot come from the Bible.

of course not

an immoral person is not likely to change their ways just by reading the bible

and there are plenty of moral people who do not believe in god

but one may find it inspirational - but if you want to treat it as a book of rules governing all aspects - well, it is not a book of that

Christians use their own sense of morality to judge the statements in the Bible, and reject those they disagree with.

even if it were a set of moral rules our prior moral notions would strongly influence how we understand those rules

and no one - not even god - could come up with a book of rules that everyone would agree with in every single detail - that would be a logical impossibility

However, the question does remain: If you are simply picking and choosing what you want to follow in the Bible, then why waste your time with it at all?

the question is wrong

i do not believe the bible is a set of rules to 'follow'

if you try to do that the results will be ridiculous - did you read 'a year of living biblically'?

No. Is that the book where a guy went around trying to obey every bible commandment? He would throw pebbles at gays for the part about stoning gays, for example?

ForgedinHell wrote:No, what I am pointing out is your feeble-minded hypocrisy. If only you were a tad bit smarter, you would realize how stupid you are.

What hypocrisy you loon? Point out where I was hypocritical. Like many Yanks who visit here you engage with the voice in your head rather than your interlocutor.

ForgedinHell wrote:No. Is that the book where a guy went around trying to obey every bible commandment? He would throw pebbles at gays for the part about stoning gays, for example?

adulterers - he stoned an adulterer with small pebbles

he also carried a folding stool with him to use on the nyc subway because he did not want to risk sitting in a seat that might have been used by a woman having her period

strangely the book was received well both by atheists and by religious people

Lynn wrote:Not having in-depth knowledge of USA history, I found the website below interesting, especially given recent threads.

Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws, http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-th ... government, looks at how the Bible helped shape the establishment of America's laws e.g. universal human rights and rule of law; and the effects where the Bible's principles have not been been applied e.g. racial slavery and unrestrained capitalism.

What a crappy website!

You need to do more that compare scripture to laws to assert influence.
Correlation os not causation.
The Lex Americana was based on the Lex Britannica, as all lawyers in American before 1776 were British Lawyers. You would need to establish how many of these legal concepts originated and came to British Law which pre-dates the Christianisation of the island.

I admit I did not spend much time there, and each place I looked seems to have childish errors and spurious connections to modern legal systems.

For example:Exodus 20:17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Does not invent, or propose 'private property' it assumes it. The Jews were not the only culture that followed this creed; Pagan religions and Lexia had this principle all over the world.

The simple fact that legal systems do not ape the outdated legal suggestion to be found in the bible, as the site also points out, is evidence that the legal systems are not based on those scriptures.

But it is, i suppose useful, as a tool to pillory idiot experts of that ridiculous creed as also being in a state of contradiction with their own supposed beliefs - so what else is new? Christians are idiots. Dah.

Lynn wrote:Not having in-depth knowledge of USA history...

If only I had watched The West Wing years ago and thank you for The Newsroom, both TV dramas but providing good insight in their own ways .