Philosophy Now Forum

Hi MB....tried posting a long reply this morning and lost it. Too tired right now to try to remember all I wrote. Sorry. Will try again soon.

Hi AS
I appreciate the time and energy it takes to write a response; and then to lose it...
I now use Copy and Paste - in fact, I should probably 'save all' somewhere...er...safe

However, like I said - I am taking a break from this for a wee while - so plenty of time, perhaps for a re-think and re-write.
Sometimes, if I try too hard, then I lose the overall picture - so, I let things simmer on the back-burner...it fascinates me the way the mind works...out of chaos comes clarity...well, sometimes

I have enjoyed/am enjoying this topic - how it can spread out into other philo areas - and note that other threads seem to be intertwining e.g. 'Knowledge and Opinions' ( theories of truth' ;and the PN magazine article about Taste...and so on.

I have had very little to do with the topic of 'aesthetics'; your use of the term intrigues me - I don't know that I would be comfortable talking of 'marjoramblue's aesthetics' - to me, it sounds, well...pretentious..

Anyway, that's all for now...

Re a long reply - yeah, well...that's fine and I will try to reply ( if others don't in the meantime)...but, for me, it makes it technically tedious if I need to address each point...
My last post was a total mish-mash...because I simply got tired...hopefully, not too difficult to decipher...

To lessen any potential confusion, perhaps we should keep our posts shorter?
...just a suggestion...and difficult if passionate about a subject, and the desire to explain...but all is good

Best -
MB

MB:I appreciate the time and energy it takes to write a response; and then to lose it...
I now use Copy and Paste - in fact, I should probably 'save all' somewhere...er...safe

AS:Yeah, I usually do that too...but this time I didn't. I thought it would be no problem as I could usually use the back button to get back to what I had written but hubby changed out my computer recently and this new one wouldn't let me do what the other one did...I think...I don't know anything about computers.

MB:However, like I said - I am taking a break from this for a wee while - so plenty of time, perhaps for a re-think and re-write.
Sometimes, if I try too hard, then I lose the overall picture - so, I let things simmer on the back-burner...it fascinates me the way the mind works...out of chaos comes clarity...well, sometimes

AS: Well, I have enjoyed our chats. I hope you come back soon.

MB:I have had very little to do with the topic of 'aesthetics'; your use of the term intrigues me - I don't know that I would be comfortable talking of 'marjoramblue's aesthetics' - to me, it sounds, well...pretentious..

AS: Pretentious? I hadn't thought of that before. I think it's more like intimacy myself. I have a strong curiosity to know if others think as I do so when I speak I try to say exactly what is on my mind. I try not to hold anything back...because if I do...then I would never be able to have another tell me what they think...or what they know about a certain subject. How could we if we were both on guard about appearing a certain 'way' to others.

Why even communicate at all if not to understand what another feels about a certain subject and to compare their thoughts with one's own thoughts? There is comfort in communication...it's like a validation that you are not alone. I can't explain it....

MB:Re a long reply - yeah, well...that's fine and I will try to reply ( if others don't in the meantime)...but, for me, it makes it technically tedious if I need to address each point...
My last post was a total mish-mash...because I simply got tired...hopefully, not too difficult to decipher...

AS: LOL MB I have to say...all your post are hard to decipher. Not because they are 'mish-mash' but because your personality shines through in all of them and you have a very unique personality. The way you word things is foreign to me so it takes me a while to understand what you mean.

MB:To lessen any potential confusion, perhaps we should keep our posts shorter?

AS:I think the problem I was having is that I was trying to explain using different scenarios because it appeared to me that I was not being clear. I mean what I was saying was clear to me...but you implied it was not clear to you. So I was trying to say the same thing only change it from the 'art' example to the 'tool' example. But I agree I did not succeed...lol.

artisticsolution wrote:
AS: I have a strong curiosity to know if others think as I do so when I speak I try to say exactly what is on my mind. I try not to hold anything back...because if I do...then I would never be able to have another tell me what they think...or what they know about a certain subject. How could we if we were both on guard about appearing a certain 'way' to others.

Why even communicate at all if not to understand what another feels about a certain subject and to compare their thoughts with one's own thoughts? There is comfort in communication...it's like a validation that you are not alone. I can't explain it....

MB:My last post was a total mish-mash...because I simply got tired...hopefully, not too difficult to decipher...

AS: LOL MB I have to say...all your post are hard to decipher. Not because they are 'mish-mash' but because your personality shines through in all of them and you have a very unique personality. The way you word things is foreign to me so it takes me a while to understand what you mean.

MB:To lessen any potential confusion, perhaps we should keep our posts shorter?

AS:I think the problem I was having is that I was trying to explain using different scenarios because it appeared to me that I was not being clear. I mean what I was saying was clear to me...but you implied it was not clear to you. So I was trying to say the same thing only change it from the 'art' example to the 'tool' example. But I agree I did not succeed...lol.

Communication is all, ain't it ? And I agree that it can be constrained by so many different factors, especially on a philo forum. It doesn't help if a post is a mish-mash and difficult to follow. Usually my 'aesthetics' ( concern with pleasing appearance ) tells me to clearly separate the main points to help anyone who is trying to follow any discussion; and also to add (expand or extend my thoughts) or subtract ( clearing out the extraneous garbage ) as I 'see' fit. However, sometimes my 'judgment' ain't all that good and I allow my 'feelings' to let rip, or thoughts to traipse out willy-nilly; so, what is 'best' on a philo forum ?

I am puzzled by your suggestion that my posts are hard to decipher...because [my] personality shines through in all of them and have a very unique personality. The way word things is foreign to [you] so it takes [you] a while to understand what mean.

Are you saying that our personalities help or hinder our verbal expression - hmm, yes perhaps. However, I'm not sure how the way I word things is particularly 'foreign' to you ? It nearly always takes me a while to understand what someone is meaning, particularly on a philo forum - a dictionary/philo encyclopedia can only go so far That is the beauty of our recent talk, I think. Although confusing at first, we can go some way - without being abusive ! - to try to understand...

I always appreciate your frankness, and your ideas stayed with me on holiday...more to say on that later- along with thoughts about photos,copying and painting...

marjoramblues wrote: However, I'm not sure how the way I word things is particularly 'foreign' to you ?

What I mean is...I have noticed that the entire world speaks a different language than I do....lol. Even though they might be speaking English...sometimes I simply cannot understand. I have come to just accept my limitations, and have realized that if everybody else gets it...and I don't...well then it can't be everybody else who is wrong and me right (as far as communication goes) right? I mean rationally speaking...if language is a form of communication and cooperation...then an agreement has to be made between communicating parties...and I can't expect my needs and desires regarding communication to supersede the majority. It is much easier that I conform to their way rather than they conform to mine.

The problem is I can't really teach myself something I don't know I don't know. Everybody else has reached some sort of agreement in the way they will communicate and I did not get the memo. And what is worse...I don't even understand what it is I am missing!

Here is a weak example of what I mean... let's just use the phrase, "You're welcome." To me it sounds condescending a little sort of like, "Yes...you should be grateful I went out of my way to help the likes of you." I have never been able to say the phrase "You're welcome." As opposed to, "Da Nada" which to me sounds more respectful. Translated it means "for nothing" To me it sounds as if one is saying, "No worries, like you I have been there before and I probably will be again. No biggie." It is a more intimate form of communication which places one right dead center in the heart of someone else. I like that much better. Aesthetically speaking.

So when I speak....I do it in a way that I am exposed and vulnerable but confident and happy in that realization of myself. So when I say your speech patterns are foreign to me, I mean exactly that. That you got the memo and I did not. You communicate sort of like Richard Baron did. There is intelligence and higher education, there is a familiarity with philosophical terms and jargon, there is a sense of humor and personality based on a culture I am not familiar with...and then roll them altogether and I have to read, and reread, and then ask 20 questions to come to an understanding of some statements.

artisticsolution wrote:

marjoramblues wrote: However, I'm not sure how the way I word things is particularly 'foreign' to you ?

What I mean is...I have noticed that the entire world speaks a different language than I do....lol. Even though they might be speaking English...sometimes I simply cannot understand. I have come to just accept my limitations, and have realized that if everybody else gets it...and I don't...well then it can't be everybody else who is wrong and me right (as far as communication goes) right? I mean rationally speaking...if language is a form of communication and cooperation...then an agreement has to be made between communicating parties...and I can't expect my needs and desires regarding communication to supersede the majority. It is much easier that I conform to their way rather than they conform to mine.

The problem is I can't really teach myself something I don't know I don't know. Everybody else has reached some sort of agreement in the way they will communicate and I did not get the memo. And what is worse...I don't even understand what it is I am missing!

Here is a weak example of what I mean... let's just use the phrase, "You're welcome." To me it sounds condescending a little sort of like, "Yes...you should be grateful I went out of my way to help the likes of you." I have never been able to say the phrase "You're welcome." As opposed to, "Da Nada" which to me sounds more respectful. Translated it means "for nothing" To me it sounds as if one is saying, "No worries, like you I have been there before and I probably will be again. No biggie." It is a more intimate form of communication which places one right dead center in the heart of someone else. I like that much better. Aesthetically speaking.

So when I speak....I do it in a way that I am exposed and vulnerable but confident and happy in that realization of myself. So when I say your speech patterns are foreign to me, I mean exactly that. That you got the memo and I did not. You communicate sort of like Richard Baron did. There is intelligence and higher education, there is a familiarity with philosophical terms and jargon, there is a sense of humor and personality based on a culture I am not familiar with...and then roll them altogether and I have to read, and reread, and then ask 20 questions to come to an understanding of some statements.

AS.
I know that you recognize that there are different 'ways' and 'patterns' re communication, depending on writer/artist, message/medium and any 'audience' in context. I don't accept this idea of a 'world memo' which everyone has received - where did that spring from ?

And...pleez, AS, I know you are keen to seduce Mr. Baron back to the PN forum, but really
You are more than able to understand and express yourself - what's with this eternal complaint ( yet not !) you have about yourself ? Why do you think you are 'special' in any way?

So what if you have to re-read and ask 101 questions - I'm much the same. I believe that in a philo discussion that is pretty much how it should be - so much better than gibly assuming that you know exactly what someone else is talking about, and where they are coming from personality-wise.

Hi MB,

MB:I know that you recognize that there are different 'ways' and 'patterns' re communication, depending on writer/artist, message/medium and any 'audience' in context. I don't accept this idea of a 'world memo' which everyone has received - where did that spring from ?

AS: Oh Sorry...it sprang from my frustration at not being able to understand things other people do and seeing the same thing happen sometimes when I try to communicate back with them. It seems like everyone but me understands. For instance, take last week....All I wanted to do was be able to use paypal so that people could purchase my paintings. Easy right? Obviously...as almost everyone I know uses it and has not had a problem setting it up...oh but not me. I go to the paypal site and it might have been written in Chinese. So there I was...reading it over and over...and the way it was worded just did not make sense to me! So I just did what I could do and thought I had followed the instructions correct...but noooooooo...it was too friggin difficult for me to understand. SO I had to call them and ask 20 question...and then...I had to go into my bank in order to ask the rest of the questions I needed answered...and then...when that didn't work...I just started clicking on every little link on the frigging site...and then...when that didn't work I called them again...and lo and behold...I do not know what I did...but while I was talking to pay pal...poof...my transaction showed up! Yea! But Jesus...how hard do I have to work to do what was a cinch for other people?! It friggin pisses me off!

MB:And...pleez, AS, I know you are keen to seduce Mr. Baron back to the PN forum, but really

AS: LOL Yes keen to seduce him on and off the forum...tis true...but only at arms length as I love my husband more than my life and would never seduce anyone with serious intention. But a little harmless flirting hurt no one and it is a honest way to tell someone how much they mean to you...that you genuinely like them. Like I said...I wear my heart on my sleeve...with women too!

MB:You are more than able to understand and express yourself - what's with this eternal complaint ( yet not !) you have about yourself ? Why do you think you are 'special' in any way?

AS: Yes, I am a good artist. So what's so wrong with admitting I am 'good at this' yet 'suck at that'? I don't understand why you use the word special. To me 'special' means something positive...not something negative.

MB:So what if you have to re-read and ask 101 questions - I'm much the same. I believe that in a philo discussion that is pretty much how it should be - so much better than gibly assuming that you know exactly what someone else is talking about, and where they are coming from personality-wise.

AS: I hear what you are saying...but philosophy and real life are different and I am impatient when I don't understand the language style. I don't want to spend all day trying to figure out how to use paypal. I want to have a life. I used to just have hubby do everything for me...business wise that is...but then I realized he should get to have a life too...lol. Now I have to grow up...and it really really sucks. I hate it...they make life way way harder than it needs to be. Can you imagine being an accountant or some other responsible type job?! OMG Kill me now!

Sorry to interrupt folks.

artisticsolution wrote:Oh Sorry...it sprang from my frustration at not being able to understand things other people do and seeing the same thing happen sometimes when I try to communicate back with them. It seems like everyone but me understands.

AS, I think you are over-thinking things, as I often do*.
There are a lot of regional and other variations - stances etc - on the forum so that what I may think as obvious to me, is not to another person and I don't always understand why they can't get it or or could possibly take a different view - and vice versa .

artisticsolution wrote:but I am impatient. I don't want to spend all day trying to figure out how to use paypal.

We each have areas where we feel more comfortable than others. I would love to do what you do and recently when back to art class but that way didn't work out for me. You are more likely to find me assisting people with their use of technology. It is not a black art but a tool for use and if you are comfortable using that tool, that's good. If not, why should you - there are others with more expertise to assist or do it for you.

*As advised by a trusted source
(Giving my source some credit as, like duszek said, you never know who will pass through these hallowed halls .)

Thundril wrote:I agree, to the extent that aesthetics is a positively acting collection of forces/neurochemical states, the negative of which would be anaesthetics.

i was thinking about this briefly at work today, and seemed to come upon something similar.

i'd like to add more in regards to many of the comments in the thread, but am not able to at the moment. something i've been trying to work on is trying to find a specific set aside time to make more thoughtful contributions.

another thing is in relation to the above, stopping my mind from drifting at work! it drifts and drifts and drifts and drifts here and there and everywhere.

i am constantly telling my own self to not drift and focus when at work. i shouldn't say constantly, because it is actually not always a problem, but i do find it to be quite frequently. trying to work on that too.

all that aside, i would like to add more later when possible. and As, i hope work is picking up for you.

Hi Lynn,

Lynn:AS, I think you are over-thinking things, as I often do*.
There are a lot of regional and other variations - stances etc - on the forum so that what I may think as obvious to me, is not to another person and I don't always understand why they can't get it or or could possibly take a different view - and vice versa .

AS: Hi Lynn. You are right about that concerning he forum, but what I was trying to get at with the paypal scenario is that it happens an awful lot in real life too. Things that are understood 'naturally' by others go completely over my head. Like the language used for setting up pay pal or paying taxes or signing real estate contracts...It gets expensive hiring people to tell you what the language means all the time, not to mention there are certain things they leave out and I end up learning the 'hard way.' For example...when I went to an attorney to set up a trust fund/will for my kids. They wanted me to put everything in the trust. But I said no...because I had learned from experience when my step dad died that everything in the trust went to pay his medical bills (because the insurance he had would not pay) so the whole trust fund and houses and such were gone...zilch nada nothing. However, he did not get around to putting all of his things in the trust fund. Those were the only things the hospitals couldn't touch. So the trust was definitely set up and worded to the benefit of the people who killed him, imo.

I don't know why contracts and such are full of such trickery that you would even need to have someone of expertise to assist you. Can't they just be open and honest?

Hi Bondi,

Things are a little better, TY. Had a fun mural last week...a nursery for an actress. She is naming her baby Juliet and had me paint the balcony scene from romeo and juliet...Sort of like it was outdoor theater. No one has asked for that before so it was different which I appreciate.

artisticsolution wrote:Hi MB,

MB:I know that you recognize that there are different 'ways' and 'patterns' re communication, depending on writer/artist, message/medium and any 'audience' in context. I don't accept this idea of a 'world memo' which everyone has received - where did that spring from ?

AS: Oh Sorry...it sprang from my frustration at not being able to understand things other people do and seeing the same thing happen sometimes when I try to communicate back with them.
It seems like everyone but me understands.

For instance, take last week....All I wanted to do was be able to use paypal so that people could purchase my paintings. Easy right? Obviously...as almost everyone I know uses it and has not had a problem setting it up...oh but not me. I go to the paypal site and it might have been written in Chinese. So there I was...reading it over and over...and the way it was worded just did not make sense to me! So I just did what I could do and thought I had followed the instructions correct... ...how hard do I have to work to do what was a cinch for other people?! It friggin pisses me off!

MB:You are more than able to understand and express yourself - what's with this eternal complaint ( yet not !) you have about yourself ? Why do you think you are 'special' in any way?

AS: Yes, I am a good artist. So what's so wrong with admitting I am 'good at this' yet 'suck at that'? I don't understand why you use the word special. To me 'special' means something positive...not something negative.

MB:So what if you have to re-read and ask 101 questions - I'm much the same. I believe that in a philo discussion that is pretty much how it should be - so much better than gibly assuming that you know exactly what someone else is talking about, and where they are coming from personality-wise.

AS: I hear what you are saying...but philosophy and real life are different and I am impatient when I don't understand the language style. I don't want to spend all day trying to figure out how to use paypal. I want to have a life.

AS. Again your specific 'technical language' example of your difficulty in setting up a financial transaction system does not support your 'complaint' that the whole world has received a memo and you haven't: 'I have noticed that the entire world speaks a different language than I do -'

This is where I see you as setting yourself up as 'special' (different from what is usual) - and having different 'needs':
'I can't expect my needs and desires regarding communication to supersede the majority. It is much easier that I conform to their way rather than they conform to mine'.

Who said that there is anything wrong with admitting relative strengths and weaknesses? This is not what your original statement was about, nor what I am questioning. Again, you slip-slide from one meaning to another; I see this as a skilful manipulation of words, changing the argument in such a manner. You complain about your poor abilities to understand and communicate, I believe that you are being dishonest here - or are being insensitive as to people who have a real lack of comprehension and ability to communicate. Perhaps both.

You say you want to have a life. Get real, AS, you have one that is far richer than many - and communication plays a big part. Your PN contributions are many and articulate - you paint scenes with words, you argue, you question, you seek solutions...need I go on
...OK. I will...And this ability to manipulate words in a virtual forum is only one manner of presentation which moves someone to think - you can scribe, you can verbal and you can paint. Some might make music.
And most of us can 'hear' but perhaps not listen carefully enough...

We can all be less than clear in our expression, but isn't it grand that we can explore our ways of looking at, and appreciate the world in so many ways.

She speaks a different language AS. She will never get it. I have a new computer, what trauma and tribulations I had to go through to set it up. It happens to me all the time. I think I have too much electricity in my body, everything goes haywire. LOL I think you will relate to what I have just said! We live in a Left side of the brain world.

Lynn:

Sorry to interrupt folks

Why?

reasonvemotion wrote:She speaks a different language AS. She will never get it. I have a new computer, what trauma and tribulations I had to go through to set it up. LOL I think you will relate to what I have just said! We live in a Left side of the brain world.

Who is this 'She' ?
And what will 'She' never get ?

Please clarify what techno trauma and tribulations have to do with 'aesthetics/feelings/judgments' ?

You live in a Left side of the brain world ? Is that some kind of a cage ?

bus2bondi wrote:

Thundril wrote:I agree, to the extent that aesthetics is a positively acting collection of forces/neurochemical states, the negative of which would be anaesthetics.

i was thinking about this briefly at work today, and seemed to come upon something similar.

i'd like to add more in regards to many of the comments in the thread, but am not able to at the moment. something i've been trying to work on is trying to find a specific set aside time to make more thoughtful contributions.

another thing is in relation to the above, stopping my mind from drifting at work! it drifts and drifts and drifts and drifts here and there and everywhere.

i am constantly telling my own self to not drift and focus when at work. i shouldn't say constantly, because it is actually not always a problem, but i do find it to be quite frequently. trying to work on that too.

all that aside, i would like to add more later when possible. and As, i hope work is picking up for you.

Hi B2B - Thundril's idea intrigued me too - look forward to hearing more about it