HYPNOSIS

[Greylorn Ell]

AUK,
What generalized term are you talking about?

"Detest". You had no idea how they would respond to such a term.

AUK,
Are you five years old, or have you adopted Stan Laurel's film persona as your mental role model?

One does not hypnotize someone to detest pizza by telling him to look deeply into your eyes while you reiterate, "You will detest pizza." The detestation refers to the result. Are all philosopher wanna-be's so unimaginatively literal, or it this just a staunchly Brit way of avoiding intelligent thought?

It would be unethical, IMO, to reprogram someone's brain under hypnosis without insuring that you could go back inside and correct any mistakes. That is especially important if you use hypnosis for somnambulistic reprogramming.

And if you'd had an accident in the meantime?

Before that I'd been in 8 vehicular accidents and totaled 4 of the vehicles, a tricycle, bicycle, and two cars. Also 5 regular accidents, plus a belly-flop from a 30' diving board. Altogether, resulting in 5 surgeries, 3 sets of broken bones, and the installation of my first aftermarket part. Three of my accidents brought me centimeters and milliseconds adjacent to death. Forgot about the motorcycle wreck-- another totaled machine, and a plastic helmet. The truth is, when I did that hypnosis work I figured that I'd outlive my subject. And I did.

Had I not done so, and she needed my assistance, I'd have tried some indirect work, if allowed.

Since then, I've only had three more serious accidents, one life-threatening, resulting in 4 more major surgeries, 2 sets of aftermarket parts, two sets of screws and staples, two totaled pickup trucks and one venerable Honda.

As it turns out, I'm especially conscientious about hypnosis work and have not needed to correct any of the programs I've installed, or re-insert the pre-existing programs that I've adapted or removed.

The woman involved was both a friend and a psychic. I met her decades ago when I was experimenting with tarot card readings and evaluating their validity. She came highly recommended as a gifted tarot reader, and she was. This was because she was naturally psychic, but was unaware of her skills. She had picked up a deck of tarot cards at a party a few years back, made some remarkable correct interpretations (which she regarded as lucky guesses) and self-taught thereafter.

What do you mean by 'psychic'?

I use conventional definitions. Study the material. There is a wealth of it. Read each book at least three times. I advise this because your reading comprehension skills are dubious.

What do you find 'valid' about the Tarot?

Nothing. A Tarot deck is meaningless by itself. Various "experts" assign meanings to certain cards, but they are arbitrary. Anyone could do the same with an "Old Maid" deck. The usefulness of the cards lies in their relationship to the reader. The images on the cards will help someone who has paid for a reading to believe that they got their money's worth even if the Tarot reader is dreadfully incompetent, and they did not understand one sentence of the reader's arcane gibberish.

Upon thinking about this, the deck itself may not be psychically neutral. I practiced with several different decks of cards, and eventually threw my most expensive and beautiful deck, designed by Aleister Crowley, into a fire. Life evened out afterward, as deceitful people went elsewhere.

I am inclined toward the opinion that the Crowley deck itself was not a "cause." I had obtained the deck from someone whom I subsequently found to be deceitful and generally untrustworthy.

Most readers are ordinary people who have taken a $50 course in Tarot card reading, memorized some mystical shit from some arcane books, and retained maybe 5% of what they learned. (You could easily become an acclaimed Tarot Reader, having already mastered that 5% part.) It would make no difference if the reader had retained 100% of the available material-- in fact, that would only confuse her, because many of the "teachings" are contradictory.

However, Tarot cards open up someone who is moderately psychic (you'll be learning what that means before your next complaint, I trust). Such individuals become rather fast and loose with their interpretations of the cards, but remarkably accurate. (I said as much in my first comment about Tarot, but you did not see fit to include that information in your 5% of retained material.)

Generally, it is wise to dismiss psychic predictions of the future unless you yourself have some psychic skills. A psychic at his best will provide deep levels of immediate insight into the source and resolution of current problems.

Of course I experimented with Tarot myself. I found that I could perform a more insightful reading of a subject after perusing a small booklet about Tarot than did professional readers. Taking the $50 course later on produced no change in my skills, but taught me much about people. I can now examine someone's handwriting and determine whether or not they can become an effective and honest Tarot reader. But I repeat, for your benefit: The cards are irrelevant. An "Old Maid" deck will do just fine. Crazy-Eights? If you have no cards, play "Mr. Potato Head" with your client and interpret the arrangement and choice of features on his potato.

Psychic stuff is fun and useful, but taking it and yourself too seriously kills both the fun and the utility.

She was, of course, using the cards to open up her innate psychic insights. After we became friends, I taught her to utilize her psychic skills without props, via an intense hypnosis session in the Superstition Mountains, around midnight. This was simply a matter of clearing a few blocks left over from childhood, when her abilities first emerged and were suppressed, and installing some protections against adverse external input.

But not yours apparently.

After my brief work with her she developed into an effective psychic, affecting the lives of many (including two dead guys that I know of) for the better. She eventually retired to a small mountain cabin where she lived with husband and numbers of wild critters until her peaceful demise. She might have lived a few ticks longer if deprived of an occasional pizza, but not as happily.

No doubt you are also using your skills to contribute to the lives of others. You could do even more of that work if you didn't waste your time carping, whining, and bitching like an angry and incompetent old nag, putting down the contributions of others. So much easier than making any useful contributions of your own, isn't it?

Do you pay your parents rent, or live with them for free?

The conversation that later on led to the pizza incident was the result of my trying to explain to her how hypnosis worked, which she did not believe. Intuitive she was, not analytical. Our experiment was done under her full consent, and was entirely ethical. Moreover I used a style of hypnosis in which she was fully conscious throughout, hearing and recalling every word I said. Her husband was observing the entire process. While she was not happy with the outcome, her guy got a good but short-lived laugh out of it, and she later admitted that yes, she'd been warned not to test her disbelief in public.

I guess you gave her all the Beon guff, if so I agree with her.

What exactly would you agree with? The only thing that you know about Beon Theory is that you are insufficiently intelligent to understand it. Labeling an unread theory "guff" is the mark of an ignorant man who is determined to remain ignorant.

I did not teach her Beon Theory. She did not have the kind of mind inclined to metaphysical theory. I did use it to explain her relationship to her brain, as part of her protection training. But I did not include the larger aspects of the theory.

I certainly used Beon Theory when working with her and teaching her how to use her innate talents. Else I'd not have been able to work with her at all.

You appear to contradict yourself? As your demo was just a reiteration of the process you said did in these mystical mountains at midnight. Nice manipulation.

WTF are you talking about? The Superstition mountains are only mystical to those who are equipped to regard them as such, either because they bought into the lore, or have had some previous life experiences there. (Such experiences will make an old barn "mystical" to someone who struggled and died in its environs but no longer remembers the experience.)

Those mountains were her choice, not mine. I had bad knees back then, and hated climbing mountains, especially with the added weight of two gallons of water, food, an overnight bag, and a large bore firearm.

Manipulation is for manipulative little jerks. How did you happen to come up with that notion?

I suspect that the attenuation of friendship was a natural outcome. Could you be friends with someone who has demonstrated that he has more control over your brain than you do? Could you enjoy a night pub-hopping with your favorite proctologist?

Sure, as long as they don't practice whilst we're out and I could trust them not to abuse their ability.

Ah, so. We've established that you have a favorite proctologist. That explains a lot.

Hypnosis is such a powerful tool for control over the human brain that mere consent to the process by a subject is not enough, by itself, to justify any claim to ethical behavior on the part of the hypnotist. That is because few people have any idea of the power of hypnosis and do not understand to what they might be consenting. Luckily, those hypnotists who might exploit the process are insufficiently competent to do any long term damage with it.

And yet you make exactly that claim above?

You need to learn to actually read before sharing the questions generated by your one-read and "duh" brain. Read at least three times, in context, before formulating a question.

I never accept payment for hypnosis or other healing work. This maintains my outer image of integrity. Also, I work only with friends, or if by referral, only with those whom I like. This greatly limits my clientele.

An 'outer image'? Fraudian slip?

Of course not. Before undertaking hypnosis work or any other kind of healing work, I am acutely aware that I'm about to affect the mind and body of another person, and that if they've become so desperate as to trust me to help them, they are hurting more than they will ever say. I pray before every session, silently and unobtrusively. Not to any God or gods. I ask any spooks that might be assisting my subject, his/her friends, and myself, for in-process guidance. It always comes and is never predictable.

I never know if what I might do will work, and with unpredictability comes some internal fear of failure. I mask this fear with a facade of confidence. Else my subjects would never allow me into mind or body.

I've experienced a number of severe orthopedic surgeries. Every one of my surgeons projected an air of absolute confidence when discussing the surgery to come (when there was time to do so). Had any one of them projected doubt or indecision, I'd have found a more confident doctor. The patient/subject must believe in the quality of the work if it to take hold within his mind-body system.

By the way, it's "Freudian slip. The squiggly red underlines beneath your incorrectly spelled words are a valuable clue-- but then you'd actually have to figure out the correct spelling? Too busy whining to do that?

Aren't you the guy who, early in our conversations, demanded that I be civil? Then who exactly is the ignorant asshole accusing me of being unethical?

Nope, I demand no such thing from my interlocutors upon here as I'm not naive enough to think I can enforce such a request in this medium.

The ignorant arsehole who is accusing you is someone who has experienced and practiced NLP's version of Milton Erickson's hypnosis.

That's too bad. NLP is the most evil communication technology ever formalized. Although it has been discovered and used by politicians and rulers millennia ago, now that it has been formalized, it is in the hands of incompetent nitwits the world over.

Now I understand why, earlier, you accused me of manipulation. That is what NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming for those who'd not studied it) is all about, and I regard it as an evil, filthy technique. It is nasty shit when employed by politicians (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Hitler, Obama, Reid, Pelosi and their ilk), because it is designed to control the brains of the stupid. To use it on someone who is hypnotized and mentally vulnerable is unconscionable.

Given the level of communicative skill you've demonstrated on this forum, any attempt on your part to use NLP on a hypnotized person borders between reprehensible and downright evil. The existence of half-assed practitioners like you, and the inventor of the style, is why I caution people to be extremely careful whom they trust.

Of course that's just my irresponsible opinion. BTW, it's "asshole," not arsehole, unless you're trying to use NLP to mitigate your identity.
Greylorn

[SpheresOfBalance]

One doesn't program in so much as they actually 'suggest,' which can only affect as is 'expected,' by a highly 'motivated' subject.

Thanks, SoB.

I always enjoy being corrected by someone who is completely ignorant about the subject addressed, except what he's read in a magazine article or chapter in a psych text. It is little wonder that philosophers have become such an inbred gang of assiduous readers of one another's opinions.

"Suggestion" is simply a jargon term in psychology, co-opted from standard English because psychologists lack the imagination to invent a better term, and weren't even smart enough to derive something from Greek or Latin equivalents. "Suggestion" is a poor term at that, because it is used ubiquitously.

Here is a suggestion for you: Learn how to actually do hypnosis, then put it to work fixing neuroses or doing regression work, actually changing the lives of others by correcting some adverse brain-level programming. Then, and only then, will your opinions count for anything, because you would then be sharing opinions derived from personal experience and understanding.

Can you see how that could be more valid than simply parroting the opinions of academics?

Greylorn

As usual, you've assumed far too much, and thus it makes an "ASS" out of "U" not "ME". But then that seems to be par for your course, now doesn't it? Preconceived notions based upon ignorance, a mere projection of ego, self, so much chest beating, like that of a gorilla, and as usual, of no real consequence! FYI, I've actually saved a life, at great risk to my own life, that was in 'fact' dead otherwise, you?

Edit:
P.S. I forgot to mention the most important part, " at great risk to my own life,"

[reasonvemotion]

From my own experience of hypnosis, it was basically an exercise of intense relaxation while preserving a quiet awareness, much like a person meditating, however I would add, hypnosis is similar to "groping around in the dark" as its outcomes vary from person to person, for some only 24 hours, the length of time for the cure or improvement is virtually unknown. What is preferable over hypnosis is careful analysis of the manifestations of the unconscious to find out where a person's natural bent should lead him as I believe, no one has the right to decide what a person "ought" to do. Hypnosis is in effect, mental enticement and because of my lowered mental vitality at that time, I allowed my normal reasoning powers time out. I suppose it could be used as a last resort, but I do not recommend giving over your mind to another, in any circumstance.

[SpheresOfBalance]

From my own experience of hypnosis, it was basically an exercise of intense relaxation while preserving a quiet awareness, much like a person meditating, however I would add, hypnosis is similar to "groping around in the dark" as its outcomes vary from person to person, for some only 24 hours, the length of time for the cure or improvement is virtually unknown. What is preferable over hypnosis is careful analysis of the manifestations of the unconscious to find out where a person's natural bent should lead him as I believe, no one has the right to decide what a person "ought" to do. Hypnosis is in effect, mental enticement and because of my lowered mental vitality at that time, I allowed my normal reasoning powers time out. I suppose it could be used as a last resort, but I do not recommend giving over your mind to another, in any circumstance.

From what I have always heard and experienced, one would and could never do something they really don't want to do. The control some, no need to mention their name, assert, is just so much chest beating, much like that of a gorilla.

[Arising_uk]

...
AUK,
Are you five years old, or have you adopted Stan Laurel's film persona as your mental role model?

Act your supposed age.

One does not hypnotize someone to detest pizza by telling him to look deeply into your eyes while you reiterate, "You will detest pizza." The detestation refers to the result. Are all philosopher wanna-be's so unimaginatively literal, or it this just a staunchly Brit way of avoiding intelligent thought?

So you telling me you told her to barf when thinking of pizza? I hope not. So what were the words you used to cause this effect?

Grinder's NC NLP approach would be to do an ecology check and barfing all over the place would not be ecological at all, in fact we'd not do such a stupid stunt in the first place just to prove a point.

Before that I'd been in 8 vehicular accidents and totaled 4 of the vehicles, a tricycle, bicycle, and two cars. Also 5 regular accidents, plus a belly-flop from a 30' diving board. Altogether, resulting in 5 surgeries, 3 sets of broken bones, and the installation of my first aftermarket part. Three of my accidents brought me centimeters and milliseconds adjacent to death. Forgot about the motorcycle wreck-- another totaled machine, and a plastic helmet. The truth is, when I did that hypnosis work I figured that I'd outlive my subject. And I did.

And if you hadn't? She'd have been left with your handiwork and given your accident-prone history I think it a stupid, arrogant and unethical act.

Had I not done so, and she needed my assistance, I'd have tried some indirect work, if allowed.

Not if you were dead you wouldn't.

Since then, I've only had three more serious accidents, one life-threatening, resulting in 4 more major surgeries, 2 sets of aftermarket parts, two sets of screws and staples, two totaled pickup trucks and one venerable Honda.

I don't think driving and you are suited.

As it turns out, I'm especially conscientious about hypnosis work and have not needed to correct any of the programs I've installed, or re-insert the pre-existing programs that I've adapted or removed.

Apart from this pizza barfing one that is.

I use conventional definitions. Study the material. There is a wealth of it. Read each book at least three times. I advise this because your reading comprehension skills are dubious.

You said she was 'psychic', what powers did you attribute to her?

Nothing. A Tarot deck is meaningless by itself. Various "experts" assign meanings to certain cards, but they are arbitrary. Anyone could do the same with an "Old Maid" deck. The usefulness of the cards lies in their relationship to the reader. The images on the cards will help someone who has paid for a reading to believe that they got their money's worth even if the Tarot reader is dreadfully incompetent, and they did not understand one sentence of the reader's arcane gibberish.

Upon thinking about this, the deck itself may not be psychically neutral. I practiced with several different decks of cards, and eventually threw my most expensive and beautiful deck, designed by Aleister Crowley, into a fire. Life evened out afterward, as deceitful people went elsewhere.

I am inclined toward the opinion that the Crowley deck itself was not a "cause." I had obtained the deck from someone whom I subsequently found to be deceitful and generally untrustworthy.

Or just Jungs Synchronicity.

Most readers are ordinary people who have taken a $50 course in Tarot card reading, memorized some mystical shit from some arcane books, and retained maybe 5% of what they learned. (You could easily become an acclaimed Tarot Reader, having already mastered that 5% part.) It would make no difference if the reader had retained 100% of the available material-- in fact, that would only confuse her, because many of the "teachings" are contradictory.

However, Tarot cards open up someone who is moderately psychic (you'll be learning what that means before your next complaint, I trust). Such individuals become rather fast and loose with their interpretations of the cards, but remarkably accurate. (I said as much in my first comment about Tarot, but you did not see fit to include that information in your 5% of retained material.)

Generally, it is wise to dismiss psychic predictions of the future unless you yourself have some psychic skills. A psychic at his best will provide deep levels of immediate insight into the source and resolution of current problems.

Of course I experimented with Tarot myself. I found that I could perform a more insightful reading of a subject after perusing a small booklet about Tarot than did professional readers. Taking the $50 course later on produced no change in my skills, but taught me much about people. I can now examine someone's handwriting and determine whether or not they can become an effective and honest Tarot reader. But I repeat, for your benefit: The cards are irrelevant. An "Old Maid" deck will do just fine. Crazy-Eights? If you have no cards, play "Mr. Potato Head" with your client and interpret the arrangement and choice of features on his potato.

Psychic stuff is fun and useful, but taking it and yourself too seriously kills both the fun and the utility.

I think NLP can do all of this 'psychic' stuff but with a more credible explanation for why it works.

After my brief work with her she developed into an effective psychic, affecting the lives of many (including two dead guys that I know of) for the better. She eventually retired to a small mountain cabin where she lived with husband and numbers of wild critters until her peaceful demise. She might have lived a few ticks longer if deprived of an occasional pizza, but not as happily.

Do you also check if she affected any for the worse?

No doubt you are also using your skills to contribute to the lives of others. You could do even more of that work if you didn't waste your time carping, whining, and bitching like an angry and incompetent old nag, putting down the contributions of others. So much easier than making any useful contributions of your own, isn't it?

I tend not to use my NLP skills unless specifically asked and even then I'm loathe to muck about with peoples minds.

Do you pay your parents rent, or live with them for free?

I do not live with my parents.

What exactly would you agree with? The only thing that you know about Beon Theory is that you are insufficiently intelligent to understand it. Labeling an unread theory "guff" is the mark of an ignorant man who is determined to remain ignorant.

Nope, it's the experience of someone who has listened to and read many metaphysics that wish to prove the existence of 'god/s' and 'souls' based upon Physics. Upon the whole they have all pre-assumed what they wish to prove and tailor their knowledge to their beliefs. What I can peruse of your book holds no sign that there'll be any surprises in store that'll be worth the cost.

I did not teach her Beon Theory. She did not have the kind of mind inclined to metaphysical theory. I did use it to explain her relationship to her brain, as part of her protection training. But I did not include the larger aspects of the theory.

Not enough to protect her from your machinations apparently.

I certainly used Beon Theory when working with her and teaching her how to use her innate talents. Else I'd not have been able to work with her at all.

How?

wTF are you talking about? The Superstition mountains are only mystical to those who are equipped to regard them as such, either because they bought into the lore, or have had some previous life experiences there. (Such experiences will make an old barn "mystical" to someone who struggled and died in its environs but no longer remembers the experience.)

Those mountains were her choice, not mine. I had bad knees back then, and hated climbing mountains, especially with the added weight of two gallons of water, food, an overnight bag, and a large bore firearm.

Manipulation is for manipulative little jerks. How did you happen to come up with that notion?

My apologies, you're just a nice guy. It appeared to me that your methods would work better if you went with her model of the world, i.e. psychical mystical guff so I assumed, wrongly, that this is what you did to put her in a more suggestible state. Personally, given your ailments, I'd have done it(not that I would) in more comfort.

Ah, so. We've established that you have a favorite proctologist. That explains a lot.

That you admit that you think you are controlling her says more.

Hypnosis is such a powerful tool for control over the human brain that mere consent to the process by a subject is not enough, by itself, to justify any claim to ethical behavior on the part of the hypnotist. ...

And yet you make exactly that claim above?

You need to learn to actually read before sharing the questions generated by your one-read and "duh" brain. Read at least three times, in context, before formulating a question.

experiment was done under her full consent, and was entirely ethical.

I read pretty well thanks.

Of course not. Before undertaking hypnosis work or any other kind of healing work, I am acutely aware that I'm about to affect the mind and body of another person, and that if they've become so desperate as to trust me to help them, they are hurting more than they will ever say. I pray before every session, silently and unobtrusively. Not to any God or gods. I ask any spooks that might be assisting my subject, his/her friends, and myself, for in-process guidance. It always comes and is never predictable.

So the pizza-barfing exercise was what, an act of altruism?

I never know if what I might do will work, and with unpredictability comes some internal fear of failure. I mask this fear with a facade of confidence. Else my subjects would never allow me into mind or body.

I've experienced a number of severe orthopedic surgeries. Every one of my surgeons projected an air of absolute confidence when discussing the surgery to come (when there was time to do so). Had any one of them projected doubt or indecision, I'd have found a more confident doctor. The patient/subject must believe in the quality of the work if it to take hold within his mind-body system.

Hmm... I can understand what you say but personally I feel uneasy at this equivalence you make and with the idea that you have patients and subjects.

By the way, it's "Freudian slip. The squiggly red underlines beneath your incorrectly spelled words are a valuable clue-- but then you'd actually have to figure out the correct spelling? Too busy whining to do that?

I know exactly what I wrote and why.

That's too bad. NLP is the most evil communication technology ever formalized. Although it has been discovered and used by politicians and rulers millennia ago, now that it has been formalized, it is in the hands of incompetent nitwits the world over.

Much like hypnosis and psychic powers.

Now I understand why, earlier, you accused me of manipulation. That is what NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming for those who'd not studied it) is all about, and I regard it as an evil, filthy technique. It is nasty shit when employed by politicians (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Hitler, Obama, Reid, Pelosi and their ilk), because it is designed to control the brains of the stupid. To use it on someone who is hypnotized and mentally vulnerable is unconscionable.

You don't 'use' it upon those who are hypnotised as hypnosis is a subset or the techniques.

I think it would be useful to be taught to all rather than practiced upon others that way there'd be no easy control, much like hypnosis. I think your pizza incident was unconscionable.

Given the level of communicative skill you've demonstrated on this forum, any attempt on your part to use NLP on a hypnotized person borders between reprehensible and downright evil. The existence of half-assed practitioners like you, and the inventor of the style, is why I caution people to be extremely careful whom they trust.

You don't use NLP on a hypnotised person, Eriksons hypnosis is a subset of NLP and used only in specific circumstances. There were two co-inventors. Personally I think you pretty much the person you describe who should be mistrusted as you have an agenda and have shown yourself to be using your powers just to make a point. Just my opinion mind.

Of course that's just my irresponsible opinion. BTW, it's "asshole," not arsehole, unless you're trying to use NLP to mitigate your identity.
Greylorn

Or one is English and an ass is a type of donkey.

[HexHammer]

To have willpower isn't the same as being resistant to suggestion.

Many buisness leaders who are strong in mind, bull rushes people and trample them, often are like pudding in their loved ones hands. Weak and feeble, too often let them go overboard with things because they can't resist the charm.

[Blaggard]

God Bless Dave El he does try, but end of the day all he does is just try everyone's patience.

Oh shut up already you just know everything and can't be wrong already, what use has philosophy for you. You already are right by default Jesus.

It can't just be me who is bored of this guy telling us how we have to think, how we must think and based on nothing more than his opinion can it?

Boring is as boring does, yawn, stretch arms watch another monologue and not a dialogue.

You score high on my internet genius thread. Congratulations score another pointless win on your win board. And when you do eventually lose as people like you always do, ask yourself why no one listened to you, you never got through to anyone, and when that day comes, as it inevitably will, ask yourself why everyone else who made progress in any sphere of information did so, and not you. Heads up it's because they could persuade people. This is not rocket science, people who can convince make progress, people who can't make apple sauce.

Dave you're just one of those people, has all the answers, but really has nothing. Good luck with that. When you die at the ripe old age of dickety 9, please remember, that no one listened and no one cared, and that it was all your fault, not anyone elses, not that you were the Kwizatz Hadderach it was all you, just you, only you, always and ever just you and if you were honest you would admit it.