Free Will Mix

[SpheresOfBalance]

That's exactly what I said, but as we understand this we then have the potential to dissolve it!

Sphere, I like your suggestion and agree with it somewhat.

Just generally from what I can remember of 'fore-structure,' it is something that is hidden. So you don't necessarily get to know it because it simply conditions. In this line of thought, then, the potential to dissolve a particular way of seeing the world, for example, will also rely on the 'fore-structure' - its historicity.

I disagree, how can one know of something and it be hidden from them at the same time? Don't get me wrong, just like the 'fore-structure' - its historicity, wasn't built in a day, neither is its dissolution. All I'm saying is that it's possible if one wants to, and therefore free will can be realized.

[ThemApples]

I disagree, how can one know of something and it be hidden from them at the same time? Don't get me wrong, just like the 'fore-structure' - its historicity, wasn't built in a day, neither is its dissolution. All I'm saying is that it's possible if one wants to, and therefore free will can be realized.

Bear in mind, I am no expert in Heideggerian ontology, but I think I can answer your question. In Being and Time, he questions the nature of 'Being' and in doing so challenges western philosophy's metaphysics of presence, logical epistemology etc. Heidegger calls being 'Dasein,' which is roughly 'being in the world.' Being in the world, roughly designates 'presence.' But as Heidegger goes on to argue, this presence is conditioned by its absence: death, and, moreover, it is something that we do not encounter, it is always part of our 'being in the world.' So, to answer your question, we know that we are going to die, yet it is hidden from us at the same time.

Fore-structure deals with hemeneutics and the role of how we interpret/understand. So we always, more or less, come from a particular point of view. The historicity of it, generally, is not only the past that we do not remember, but also that we are born in a particular state of affairs, which condition us.

(Heideggerians are probably going to shoot me for my explanations!)

[SpheresOfBalance]

I disagree, how can one know of something and it be hidden from them at the same time? Don't get me wrong, just like the 'fore-structure' - its historicity, wasn't built in a day, neither is its dissolution. All I'm saying is that it's possible if one wants to, and therefore free will can be realized.

Bear in mind, I am no expert in Heideggerian ontology, but I think I can answer your question.
I have no question, I seek no clarification, it was rhetorical!

In Being and Time, he questions the nature of 'Being' and in doing so challenges western philosophy's metaphysics of presence, logical epistemology etc. Heidegger calls being 'Dasein,' which is roughly 'being in the world.' Being in the world, roughly designates 'presence.' But as Heidegger goes on to argue, this presence is conditioned by its absence: death, and, moreover, it is something that we do not encounter, it is always part of our 'being in the world.' So, to answer your question, we know that we are going to die, yet it is hidden from us at the same time.
"Going to die" is not hidden from us at all. Death itself is hidden from some of us, but I simply remember back to before I was born, such is death, i.e. non existence! Then again, this is a very bad analogy, because in death you cease to exist, of course you have no free will, as you do not have the free will to cheat physics, because that is the container I spoke of; life! But I see this 'fore-structure,' this 'historicity' as a human construct, and anything that is a part of the human construct can be deconstructed, if one WILL's it, which we are 'free' to do!


Fore-structure deals with hemeneutics and the role of how we interpret/understand. So we always, more or less, come from a particular point of view. The historicity of it, generally, is not only the past that we do not remember, but also that we are born in a particular state of affairs, which condition us.
Once you truly examine these things, as the conditionals (causal's) that they are, one can counter their effects simply by their acknowledgment, analysis, understanding and desire to have it another way, first in mind, with actualization following. It's called evolution!


(Heideggerians are probably going to shoot me for my explanations!)

[ThemApples]

Hi Sphere,

I wrote: 'Being in the world,' roughly designates 'presence.' But as Heidegger goes on to argue, this presence is conditioned by its absence: death, and, moreover, it is something that we do not encounter, it is always part of our 'being in the world.'

And you responded: 'Going to die" is not hidden from us at all. Death itself is hidden from some of us...'

As you can see, I never said 'going to die.'

But it's hard to have this dialogue if you haven't read Being and Time, because there is too much leg work to do as with all Continental Philosophy, and I don't really wish to defend Heidegger's position.

That said, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Yes you did!

So, to answer your question, we know that we are going to die, yet it is hidden from us at the same time.

"Going to die" is not hidden from us at all. Death itself is hidden from some of us, but I simply remember back to before I was born, such is death, i.e. non existence! Then again, this is a very bad analogy, because in death you cease to exist, of course you have no free will, as you do not have the free will to cheat physics, because that is the container I spoke of; life! But I see this 'fore-structure,' this 'historicity' as a human construct, and anything that is a part of the human construct can be deconstructed, if one WILL's it, which we are 'free' to do!

[ThemApples]

My bad. You're right, but focus on what I unpacked on presence/absence. It won't help though because there is too much to unpack here in the forum to get what I'm trying to capture. My fault, not yours.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Hi Sphere,

I wrote: 'Being in the world,' roughly designates 'presence.' But as Heidegger goes on to argue, this presence is conditioned by its absence: death, and, moreover, it is something that we do not encounter, it is always part of our 'being in the world.'

And you responded: 'Going to die" is not hidden from us at all. Death itself is hidden from some of us...'

As you can see, I never said 'going to die.'

Yes you did, see above, and above further, in the original, if you'd like! Maybe it's Alzheimer's.

But it's hard to have this dialogue if you haven't read Being and Time, because there is too much leg work to do as with all Continental philosophy, and I don't really wish to defend Heidegger's position.
What makes you think I never read it and merely think it's hogwash!


That said, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
No problem, any time you require critical thinking versus parroting, you can count on me.

[ThemApples]

You wrote: 'What makes you think I never read it and merely think it's hogwash!'

My bad again, I didn't realize you had read it.

I'm curious to know why you think its hogwash? What was he trying to get across?

[SpheresOfBalance]

My bad. You're right, but focus on what I unpacked on presence/absence. It won't help though because there is too much to unpack here in the forum to get what I'm trying to capture. My fault, not yours.

Yeah that sounds like BS, unless he's trying to say that our knowledge of death somehow taints our psyche and thus our life's construct. But I would say that it all depends on the individual and how they see/deal with death.

[ThemApples]

My bad. You're right, but focus on what I unpacked on presence/absence. It won't help though because there is too much to unpack here in the forum to get what I'm trying to capture. My fault, not yours.

Yeah that sounds like BS, unless he's trying to say that our knowledge of death somehow taints our psyche and thus our life's construct. But I would say that it all depends on the individual and how they see/deal with death.

Fair enough. You haven't read it, I think. It's no big deal.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You wrote: 'What makes you think I never read it and merely think it's hogwash!'

My bad again, I didn't realize you had read it.

I'm curious to know why you think its hogwash? What was he trying to get across?

Primarily he was about the nature of being, but I really didn't like him for openly supporting Hitler. Anyone that supports such a monster that was responsible for killing so many innocent people has no clue as to the nature of being. Come on give me a break! I think he should have had the nature of "being" a Jew at Auschwitz and had that final Nazi shower.

[Arising_uk]

ROTFLMFAO, Only due to your presumption

Tell me how you've reconciled them then, such that you can use this "and" in relation to them.

Remember, money is at issue here, I do not have the resources nor time to read every hair brained psychologist out there, to determine, potentially, the absolute best course of counseling for my needs. The psychologist I have right now is FREE!!!!!!!!!

Did I mention money? No, I just said you'll be in therapy for ages but I suppose its not really solutions you wish.

The people you refer to as "hairbrained", i.e. Richard Bandler and John Grinder were a mathematician and linguist respectively before they studied to become psychoanalysts, which is where they met. Can your therapist say the same?

Whilst upon their studies they became dissatisfied that they would leave to become 'practising' analysts when they thought they should leave with some practical skills as it seemed a bit unfair upon the clients to practice upon them. As such they decided to find creditable therapists who were getting results in their field and they studied how they were doing it, namely Viginia Satir and Milton Erickson, along with the ideas and thoughts of Gregory Bateson. Out of this came NLP as a way of accelerated learning by the method of modelling and a whole chunk of techniques from the field of psychoanalysis that provably worked in practice. They made no claim for a theory of 'mind' or psyche as they felt that it was exactly the having of one of these that was a problem with the current schools of psychoanalysis. As such they had an epistemology, and a few presuppositions about thought, thinking, perception and language that one assumes along with a lot of actual practice and experience of the various techniques.

Again, your presumption makes a potential fool of you! I would say that in FACT, the term of counseling required is subject to several variables, i.e.,

1) The degree of the problem.
2) The astuteness of both the Psychologist and patient.
3) The length of time the psychologist studied.
4) The myriad schools of study of the psychologist.

To name but a few.

You see Arising, the term is in fact, self paced.

Just as freely as I have her, I can switch at any time, to any of several therapists. I truly have a great 'free' thing going here! And I'll take what I need, from the table! I've been working on myself since I was 17, not that it's been consistent, I'm one of those "slow, but sure" kind of people, I step carefully so there is no need to backtrack.

Why bother when NLP and New Code NLP has done the work for you.

"... working on myself since I was 17" How's it going!? My take is you'll be 'working on yourself' until you drop dead and still not resolve anything. You sound like a therapy junkie.

Still, you may not mean in a therapeutic context, so I agree that if by "working on myself" you mean things like getting an education, obtaining crafts or skills, etc, its a laudable endeavour.

[SpheresOfBalance]

ROTFLMFAO, Only due to your presumption

Tell me how you've reconciled them then, such that you can use this "and" in relation to them.

Remember, money is at issue here, I do not have the resources nor time to read every hair brained psychologist out there, to determine, potentially, the absolute best course of counseling for my needs. The psychologist I have right now is FREE!!!!!!!!!

Did I mention money? No, I just said you'll be in therapy for ages but I suppose its not really solutions you wish.

The people you refer to as "hairbrained", i.e. Richard Bandler and John Grinder were a mathematician and linguist respectively before they studied to become psychoanalysts, which is where they met. Can your therapist say the same?

Whilst upon their studies they became dissatisfied that they would leave to become 'practising' analysts when they thought they should leave with some practical skills as it seemed a bit unfair upon the clients to practice upon them. As such they decided to find creditable therapists who were getting results in their field and they studied how they were doing it, namely Viginia Satir and Milton Erickson, along with the ideas and thoughts of Gregory Bateson. Out of this came NLP as a way of accelerated learning by the method of modelling and a whole chunk of techniques from the field of psychoanalysis that provably worked in practice. They made no claim for a theory of 'mind' or psyche as they felt that it was exactly the having of one of these that was a problem with the current schools of psychoanalysis. As such they had an epistemology, and a few presuppositions about thought, thinking, perception and language that one assumes along with a lot of actual practice and experience of the various techniques.

Again, your presumption makes a potential fool of you! I would say that in FACT, the term of counseling required is subject to several variables, i.e.,

1) The degree of the problem.
2) The astuteness of both the Psychologist and patient.
3) The length of time the psychologist studied.
4) The myriad schools of study of the psychologist.

To name but a few.

You see Arising, the term is in fact, self paced.

Just as freely as I have her, I can switch at any time, to any of several therapists. I truly have a great 'free' thing going here! And I'll take what I need, from the table! I've been working on myself since I was 17, not that it's been consistent, I'm one of those "slow, but sure" kind of people, I step carefully so there is no need to backtrack.

Why bother when NLP and New Code NLP has done the work for you.

"... working on myself since I was 17" How's it going!? My take is you'll be 'working on yourself' until you drop dead and still not resolve anything. You sound like a therapy junkie.

Still, you may not mean in a therapeutic context, so I agree that if by "working on myself" you mean things like getting an education, obtaining crafts or skills, etc, its a laudable endeavour.

Great save, in this last paragraph, I was going to really hit you on your presumptive head with your seemingly low IQ, but you managed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. So kudos to you for being thoughtful!

Still you presume too much.

First, that an education in and of itself is any indicator whatsoever of one truthfully knowing. For instance, allopathic doctors are notorious for not seeing eye to eye on a particular subject of medicine for a plethora of reasons, and in such cases which are right and which are wrong? Then there's homeopathy, naturopathy and holistic approach's, the latter two I prefer. But even with those types it depends on the individual in question. I'm not a fool that goes to a doctor and says where is your piece of paper, good, it says right here that you're a doctor, OK, here's my life, like some kind of fool. I scrutinize every word spoken and unspoken, every nuance and if I feel they're not up to par, it's, next! Which doctor has ticket 6473, because you're next in the qualification trial. I trust doctors as far as I can throw them, because of money there is always a conflict of interest, I'm sure that Hippocrates has been rolling in his grave for quite some time now. I actually know of doctors that get in on patents relating to a specific bacteria and then lie to the populace, even though people are dying, because they've been bought and sold by insurance companies.

Why do you think I'm so down on mankind and his selfishness in the first place, do you really think it's an arbitrary decision. No it's because time and time again he 'proves' how rotten he is. You can stick your pseudo-scientists/psychotherapists where the sun doesn't shine, they're quacks. It's got to do with what's stored in your brain, especially those things of the first 5 years. I know this to be true. People such as yourself, looking for a quick fix, have no idea of what's really going on. I don't know what motivates you, but it sure as hell isn't truth. I guess you measure your success in life by how many supposed milestones you can see in your rear view mirror, as if it has anything to do with quantity, well it doesn't, it's all about quality. You can stick quantity up your arse!

[Arising_uk]

Great save, in this last paragraph, I was going to really hit you on your presumptive head with your seemingly low IQ, but you managed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. So kudos to you for being thoughtful!

Please save your platitudes for those who care.

Still you presume too much.

First, that an education in and of itself is any indicator whatsoever of one truthfully knowing. For instance, allopathic doctors are notorious for not seeing eye to eye on a particular subject of medicine for a plethora of reasons, and in such cases which are right and which are wrong? ...

Hardly notorious, there is massive agreement in medicine about treatments for a vast range of diseases and injuries. Where there may be some disagreement is with the ones that we can't cure and where doctors have not kept up with their practice and ignore or are unaware of the latest evidence-based results. Its why we've introduced the Career Professional Development(CPD) practice over here for many professions.

Then there's homeopathy, naturopathy and holistic approach's, the latter two I prefer. But even with those types it depends on the individual in question. I'm not a fool that goes to a doctor and says where is your piece of paper, good, it says right here that you're a doctor, OK, here's my life, like some kind of fool. I scrutinize every word spoken and unspoken, every nuance and if I feel they're not up to par, it's, next! Which doctor has ticket 6473, because you're next in the qualification trial. I trust doctors as far as I can throw them, because of money there is always a conflict of interest, I'm sure that Hippocrates has been rolling in his grave for quite some time now. I actually know of doctors that get in on patents relating to a specific bacteria and then lie to the populace, even though people are dying, because they've been bought and sold by insurance companies. ...

I think you talking from a local cultural experience, as over here we have the NHS and as such all our doctors are qualified under one regime and, as such, I would not be treated be one without such a trial. Our treatment is also free at the point of service so money is not directly involved and insurance companies do not come into it. Unfortunately our current crop of politicians are in bed with some of the large American providers and it looks like we'll be heading down your road tout suite. Our system also provides the alternative treatments where there is no apparent cure from the allopathic approach as we think, well what the hell, it can't hurt but lately we've been thinking about at least licencing some of them as there are some definite quacks out there in these fields. We also thinking along the lines that prevention is better than cure and so slowly the idea of a 'holistic' appraoch to health may pay dividends for the helath of the nation. But like I said, I doubt the NHS will be about for much longer as all parties appear to want to marketize it.

Why do you think I'm so down on mankind and his selfishness in the first place, do you really think it's an arbitrary decision. No it's because time and time again he 'proves' how rotten he is. ...

But the world is also full of people showing how time and time again they are selfless and do good deeds? In fact in everyday life people appear to rub along fairly well despite their differences.

You can stick your pseudo-scientists/psychotherapists where the sun doesn't shine, they're quacks. ...

'Quacks' with the same and more qualifications than the shrinks you go to. So why not pick their brains as well? Especially since they've done a large part of the job in finding out how the effective shrinks actually work. But I told you, Grinder and Bandler claim no scientific approach to their works, unlike the psychologists you visit who attempt to 'scientifically' ground their theories of personality all day long.

It's got to do with what's stored in your brain, especially those things of the first 5 years. I know this to be true. ...

Only because you, along with most of America, sucked Freud down hook line and sinker, and because you are a therapy junkie who doesn't actually wish to change but only justify themself.

People such as yourself, looking for a quick fix, have no idea of what's really going on. I don't know what motivates you, but it sure as hell isn't truth. ...

Depends what you mean, as in this respect I prefer results and measure them by whether there is change.

I guess you measure your success in life by how many supposed milestones you can see in your rear view mirror, as if it has anything to do with quantity, well it doesn't, it's all about quality. You can stick quantity up your arse!

What are you burbling about? I measure my success in life(whatever the hell this is?) by my current situation and whether I'm okay with it.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Great save, in this last paragraph, I was going to really hit you on your presumptive head with your seemingly low IQ, but you managed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. So kudos to you for being thoughtful!

Please save your platitudes for those who care.

Still you presume too much.

First, that an education in and of itself is any indicator whatsoever of one truthfully knowing. For instance, allopathic doctors are notorious for not seeing eye to eye on a particular subject of medicine for a plethora of reasons, and in such cases which are right and which are wrong? ...

Hardly notorious, there is massive agreement in medicine about treatments for a vast range of diseases and injuries. Where there may be some disagreement is with the ones that we can't cure and where doctors have not kept up with their practice and ignore or are unaware of the latest evidence-based results. Its why we've introduced the Career Professional Development(CPD) practice over here for many professions.

Then there's homeopathy, naturopathy and holistic approach's, the latter two I prefer. But even with those types it depends on the individual in question. I'm not a fool that goes to a doctor and says where is your piece of paper, good, it says right here that you're a doctor, OK, here's my life, like some kind of fool. I scrutinize every word spoken and unspoken, every nuance and if I feel they're not up to par, it's, next! Which doctor has ticket 6473, because you're next in the qualification trial. I trust doctors as far as I can throw them, because of money there is always a conflict of interest, I'm sure that Hippocrates has been rolling in his grave for quite some time now. I actually know of doctors that get in on patents relating to a specific bacteria and then lie to the populace, even though people are dying, because they've been bought and sold by insurance companies. ...

I think you talking from a local cultural experience, as over here we have the NHS and as such all our doctors are qualified under one regime and, as such, I would not be treated be one without such a trial. Our treatment is also free at the point of service so money is not directly involved and insurance companies do not come into it. Unfortunately our current crop of politicians are in bed with some of the large American providers and it looks like we'll be heading down your road tout suite. Our system also provides the alternative treatments where there is no apparent cure from the allopathic approach as we think, well what the hell, it can't hurt but lately we've been thinking about at least licencing some of them as there are some definite quacks out there in these fields. We also thinking along the lines that prevention is better than cure and so slowly the idea of a 'holistic' appraoch to health may pay dividends for the helath of the nation. But like I said, I doubt the NHS will be about for much longer as all parties appear to want to marketize it.

Why do you think I'm so down on mankind and his selfishness in the first place, do you really think it's an arbitrary decision. No it's because time and time again he 'proves' how rotten he is. ...

But the world is also full of people showing how time and time again they are selfless and do good deeds? In fact in everyday life people appear to rub along fairly well despite their differences.

You can stick your pseudo-scientists/psychotherapists where the sun doesn't shine, they're quacks. ...

'Quacks' with the same and more qualifications than the shrinks you go to. So why not pick their brains as well? Especially since they've done a large part of the job in finding out how the effective shrinks actually work. But I told you, Grinder and Bandler claim no scientific approach to their works, unlike the psychologists you visit who attempt to 'scientifically' ground their theories of personality all day long.

It's got to do with what's stored in your brain, especially those things of the first 5 years. I know this to be true. ...

Only because you, along with most of America, sucked Freud down hook line and sinker, and because you are a therapy junkie who doesn't actually wish to change but only justify themself.
As if you could possibly know me!

No it's evidence sweetheart. I KNOW that Freudian psychology hits the mark in some areas, as well a Jung, because it's apparent, once you look at it and mankind, side by side. It's about finding out WHY the problem exists, that you can truly deal with it, your fools simply want to program over top of it, like some kind of patch on an inner tube, where bubblegum is the adhesive. It's like the fools that prescribe drugs for depression, as if it's actually a disease. Depression is the result of understanding the futility and absurdity of mankind's construct, the powers that be want you to forget about it, because your acknowledgment of it can potentially undermine their livelihood, so they drug you, so you'll forget about it, basically brain washing you, just like your NLP shit.The truth is based in the finding, addressing and finally changing the effects of the problem, make it right, not cover it up like a cat buries it's shit in the sand or better yet like that of an ostrich that buries it's head in the sand, as if the problem will disappear. And any Freudian Psychologist that talks about drugs, can also take a running jump, The TRUTH, is ALL that MATTERS! PERIOD!!!!!

"Lets change the way you think about it," BULLSHIT! Lets think of how we can get rid of you fuckers that want to brain wash us naturalists, instead!

Freud is on the mark as to the role of sex in mans deviancy, it's evident in the way man treats this natural part of his animal self, as without it, he would not exist to contemplate it, there is nothing more fundamental to his existence and yet he holds it at arms distance. The man animal has his head up his ass. Show me a group of humans that run around nude, with smiles on their faces, dancing around like children having fun, enjoying life because of life itself, acknowledging their position in the universe for what it really is, and I'll show you the only true normalcy. All the rest are psychologically fucked? Can you say the majority! Mankind is the most unnatural fucked up animal on the planet, and because of this the most self destructive. Mark my words bitch, the only thing in mans future, left unchecked (on his current course) is his annihilation, at his own hands, the fool that he is. The reason you see good in him is because you are ignorant of the true definition of good. Yours is from a selfish perspective, such is the majority of men.

I believe in no ONE THING! Instead like the wise man that I am, I listen to everything because I KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt, that's the only place where truth resides, it's not to be found in any one thing, it's everywhere, to be found in everything, unlike your STUPID ass believes!!! The trick is to find it's relational position, it's associations, and it's not a one dimensional perspective either. It's a multidimensional interconnectedness, not the flat plane of the pages in a book, as a parroted regurgitation of a singular perspective. No man can possibly know it all, as his specialty precludes it. You have to pick the bits as evidenced by other resources so as to arrive at the true picture of it all. The truth of the bits of any one perspective can be found only in the bits of all the other perspectives as they agree. This is where true genius resides.

And for your information You're a fucking fool, A BIG TIME FOOL. With your immature boxing and labeling, "Americans this, Americans that, but us British, oh we're so great, like a fucking 5 year old, you are! Ever stop and wonder what the hell you have to constantly pump up your psyche by making your group the best group, you fucking looser, you! You do this infantile crap more that anyone else I've noticed here on the forum. Ever wonder why your self image is so much in the crapper, that you need to pump it up continuously? For you, education is a weapon, to allow you to feel better about yourself, above all others. You're the idiot that placed me in the Freud box, as if you could possibly know what I believe. You falsely place people and ideas into boxes of opposition to 'your' beliefs as a convenience so that you can claim superiority, it's merely a reflection of your own minds eye, thus illusory, as a means of self stroking. Grow up little girly! Everyone can be equals and life is still OK!

If I had the ability, I'd leave this fucking planet and watch it implode from space, such is mankind's current course, and if you think for a second that I'd take his selfish bullshit off world, so as to taint another garden of Eden, you're sadly mistaken. I'd sacrifice myself before I'd infect another pure planet with mans psychosis. I'm ready for peace with the cosmos, it's you twisted fucks that wield your so called knowledge as a weapon that aren't, and the ones that are, in fact, the problem.

People such as yourself, looking for a quick fix, have no idea of what's really going on. I don't know what motivates you, but it sure as hell isn't truth. ...

Depends what you mean, as in this respect I prefer results and measure them by whether there is change.

I guess you measure your success in life by how many supposed milestones you can see in your rear view mirror, as if it has anything to do with quantity, well it doesn't, it's all about quality. You can stick quantity up your arse!

What are you burbling about? I measure my success in life(whatever the hell this is?) by my current situation and whether I'm okay with it.