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Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:21 am
by zimmer80203`
I disagree that matter creates consciousness.
1. Matter cannot see, hear or feel whereas consciousness can.
2. Matter is limited were as consciousness is unlimited. How can that which is limited create what is unlimited? You end with what you start with. If you start with something limited, the end result will be limited.
3. Even religion agrees that consciousness creates matter as pointed out in the book of Genesis.
4. Doesn't the physical body die when consciousness leaves the body?
David
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:21 am
by zimmer80203`
I disagree that matter creates consciousness.
1. Matter cannot see, hear or feel whereas consciousness can.
2. Matter is limited were as consciousness is unlimited. How can that which is limited create what is unlimited? You end with what you start with. If you start with something limited, the end result will be limited.
3. Even religion agrees that consciousness creates matter as pointed out in the book of Genesis.
4. Doesn't the physical body die when consciousness leaves the body?
David
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:41 am
by John
zimmer80203` wrote:I disagree that matter creates consciousness.
1. Matter cannot see, hear or feel whereas consciousness can.
Those are material phenomena so how does consciousness achieve them on it's own?
zimmer80203` wrote:2. Matter is limited were as consciousness is unlimited. How can that which is limited create what is unlimited? You end with what you start with. If you start with something limited, the end result will be limited.
In what way is consciousness "unlimited"?
zimmer80203` wrote:3. Even religion agrees that consciousness creates matter as pointed out in the book of Genesis.
Saying that "Even religion agrees" is meaningless as what religion believes is highly contested and varies between religions anyway. Besides, the book of Genesis says a lot of things.
zimmer80203` wrote:4. Doesn't the physical body die when consciousness leaves the body?
Do you have evidence that consciousness doesn't die with the physical body?
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:21 pm
by chaz wyman
attofishpi wrote:Something from nothing?
Couldnt something and nothing exist side by side. Like chaos is the opposite universe to ours, in this one we are able to actually perceive.
No nothing does not exist; the clue is in the definition of the word.
Thundril linked the below in another thread which i found fascinating and perhaps may shed some light...(on a shed with power)
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... he_phi.php
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:32 pm
by chaz wyman
zimmer80203` wrote:I disagree that matter creates consciousness.
1. Matter cannot see, hear or feel whereas consciousness can.
What would you do without eyes ears and hands?
Think again!
2. Matter is limited were as consciousness is unlimited.
There is no consciousness without matter. See haow far you get without a brain.
Think again!
How can that which is limited create what is unlimited? You end with what you start with. If you start with something limited, the end result will be limited.
Everything has limits. Consciousness is limited by its need to have matter as its organising principle.
3. Even religion agrees that consciousness creates matter as pointed out in the book of Genesis.
Religion is a fantasy. But not even Genesis makes that claim.
4. Doesn't the physical body die when consciousness leaves the body?
No, matter persists. When death occurs, consciousness ends. Consciousness is nothing more than the organisation of matter. When that matter disorganises, it does not end, it disperses into the environment and can contribute to more life. Matter is not destroyed.
You have some crazy ideas.
David
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:22 pm
by Thundril
zimmer80203` wrote:
4. Doesn't the physical body die when consciousness leaves the body?
David
Do you think consciousness 'leaves the body' when you get knocked out, faint, or fall asleep? Isn't it better to think that consciousness is an activity that some brain structures 'do', at sometimes and 'don't do' at other times. For example it stops happening when you fall asleep, faint, get knocked out, pass out from overuse of recreational drugs, undergo general anaesthetic, or die.
Thinking that consciousness 'leaves the body' when you stop being conscious would be analogous to thinking movement 'leaves the car engine' when you switch off the ignition.
If we thought like that, it would make sense to ask questions like 'Where does my voice go to when I'm not singing or speaking?'. But it is easy to see that it doesn't 'go' anywhere. It just stops happening. Consciousness is the same; it's a process that sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't.. Just like singing or dancing, eating running or fighting. (only a bit more complicated).
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:38 am
by attofishpi
attofishpi wrote:Couldnt something and nothing exist side by side. Like chaos is the opposite universe to ours, in this one we are able to actually perceive.
chaz_wyman wrote:No nothing does not exist; the clue is in the definition of the word.
And therein lies the answer...chaos. A 'place' where there is no 'place' for logic.
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:59 am
by chaz wyman
attofishpi wrote:attofishpi wrote:Couldnt something and nothing exist side by side. Like chaos is the opposite universe to ours, in this one we are able to actually perceive.
chaz_wyman wrote:No nothing does not exist; the clue is in the definition of the word.
And therein lies the answer...chaos. A 'place' where there is no 'place' for logic.
Chaos is in the mond of the beholder.
The universe abides, nonetheless
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:12 pm
by attofishpi
chaz_wyman wrote:No nothing does not exist; the clue is in the definition of the word.
attofishpi wrote:And therein lies the answer...chaos. A 'place' where there is no 'place' for logic.
chaz_wyman wrote:Chaos is in the mond of the beholder. The universe abides, nonetheless
Is it. Does it. none the less? Does it really?
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:17 pm
by chaz wyman
attofishpi wrote:chaz_wyman wrote:No nothing does not exist; the clue is in the definition of the word.
attofishpi wrote:And therein lies the answer...chaos. A 'place' where there is no 'place' for logic.
chaz_wyman wrote:Chaos is in the mond of the beholder. The universe abides, nonetheless
Is it. Does it. none the less? Does it really?
Yes, in other words it does not give a rat's arse about what you or I think is 'chaos'.
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:21 pm
by attofishpi
chaz wyman wrote:Yes, in other words it does not give a rat's arse about what you or I think is 'chaos'.
Succinct..nice
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:29 am
by zimmer80203`
There are many types of consciousness. 1) There is the consciousness that keeps the heart pumping, the lungs breathing, and various organs functioning without thought - whether we are awake or sleeping. 2) There is the consciousness that makes us consciously aware of our environment when we are not sleeping. There is also the consciousness that created the physical body.
If the physical body dies, there is no need for number 1 and 2.
I didn't mention anti-matter or "anims" (as opposed to "atoms") when I asked the question: "What creates matter?" There is the possibility that consciousness and anti-matter mutually create matter. In other words, physical matter is the result of consciousness stimulating anti-matter. The "String Theory" suggests the latter.
We live in a 3 dimensional world. Yet science and mathematics points out that there are more that 3 dimensions to life. Thus, we only have a small piece of life's puzzle, yet many act as is they understand life completely.
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:09 am
by John
zimmer80203` wrote:We live in a 3 dimensional world. Yet science and mathematics points out that there are more that 3 dimensions to life. Thus, we only have a small piece of life's puzzle, yet many act as is they understand life completely.
And some choose to fill in the gaps with wild ideas.
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:25 am
by chaz wyman
zimmer80203` wrote:There are many types of consciousness. 1) There is the consciousness that keeps the heart pumping, the lungs breathing, and various organs functioning without thought - whether we are awake or sleeping.
That is not consciousness in any meaningful sense. That is called the autonomic nervous system.
2) There is the consciousness that makes us consciously aware of our environment when we are not sleeping. There is also the consciousness that created the physical body.
If the physical body dies, there is no need for number 1 and 2.
I didn't mention anti-matter or "anims" (as opposed to "atoms") when I asked the question: "What creates matter?" There is the possibility that consciousness and anti-matter mutually create matter. In other words, physical matter is the result of consciousness stimulating anti-matter. The "String Theory" suggests the latter.
We live in a 3 dimensional world. Yet science and mathematics points out that there are more that 3 dimensions to life. Thus, we only have a small piece of life's puzzle, yet many act as is they understand life completely.
Re: What creates matter?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:44 pm
by Thundril
zimmer80203` wrote:There is the possibility that consciousness and anti-matter mutually create matter. In other words, physical matter is the result of consciousness stimulating anti-matter. The "String Theory" suggests the latter.
WTF? Where? How?
zimmer80203` wrote:We live in a 3 dimensional world. Yet science and mathematics points out that there are more that 3 dimensions to life.
No they don't. The theories that need an extra 7 or so dimensions have nothing to say about 'life' specifically.. Biology, even micro-biology, works fine with 3 dimensions of space and one of time.