The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:53 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:43 am Maybe the point was to lure us into taking nonsense seriously.

No, that's your routine.

My point was to hear what people think about the concept of 'reality'.

I suppose if that was what you wanted to ask, and if you wanted them to be able to answer coherently, it would have been good not to contradict yourself within four words.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:03 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:53 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:43 am Maybe the point was to lure us into taking nonsense seriously.

No, that's your routine.

My point was to hear what people think about the concept of 'reality'.

I suppose if that was what you wanted to ask, and if you wanted them to be able to answer coherently, it would have been good not to contradict yourself within four words.

Even an illusion which considers itself real, having nothing else to compare itself to, can inquire as to the nature of what is real.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:03 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:53 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:43 am Maybe the point was to lure us into taking nonsense seriously.

No, that's your routine.

My point was to hear what people think about the concept of 'reality'.

I suppose if that was what you wanted to ask, and if you wanted them to be able to answer coherently, it would have been good not to contradict yourself within four words.

Interestingly enough, there were lots of good responses who did not feel the need to mansplain how I should have asked the question. Nope, just you, as usual... wanting to force your limited notions on other people and tell them how to think and talk. I expected no less from you, so you came through right on schedule. Good job!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:03 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:53 am
No, that's your routine.

My point was to hear what people think about the concept of 'reality'.

I suppose if that was what you wanted to ask, and if you wanted them to be able to answer coherently, it would have been good not to contradict yourself within four words.

...mansplain...

Yep, doing logic is "mansplaining." It tends to happen when somebody's "woman-been-wrong."

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 1:00 am

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 6:46 pm Mental configurations comprise past and future.

How much of it is made up?

In the case of TDS, quite a bit is made up.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 5:19 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 1:00 am

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 6:46 pm Mental configurations comprise past and future.

How much of it is made up?

In the case of TDS, quite a bit is made up.

What about the 'mental configurations' (as you say) in general?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 5:46 am

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 5:19 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 1:00 am
How much of it is made up?

In the case of TDS, quite a bit is made up.

What about the 'mental configurations' (as you say) in general?

It’s a compounding thing. Memories and castles in the clouds are built on perceptions of the present, which are accurate or inaccurate. Memories and castles in the clouds then affect future perceptions of experience, or interpretation of another's actions.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 1:44 am

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 8:21 pm If you click on the following link,...

https://youtu.be/78kpTL9eFFY?si=AIJZveN37DJyO7KS

...it will take you to that short clip on YouTube.

Please let me know what you think of it.
_______

I must admit that I very rarely go online to watch things. There's just so much in all directions! But if I feel drawn to check it out, I will let you know what I think. Thank you!

I cannot rule out the possibility that watching that YouTube video might be a colossal waste of 8 minutes of your life.

However, aren't you the least bit interested in seeing (putting a face to) the person (me) you've been talking to on this forum for almost a decade now? --> (albeit me 30 years ago ).

I know that if you (or anyone else here) gave me an opportunity to see what you looked (and sounded) like,...

(especially in a YouTube video in which you try to clarify your philosophical take on reality)

...I wouldn't hesitate to click on the link you provided.

But it's certainly okay if (for whatever personal reason) you choose not to.

(Btw, if Rick manages to sell this forum, and whoever he sells it to ushers-in its demise, then I suggest that you [and the rest of the PN gang] should head on over to the ILP forum and join in on the similar nonsense and mayhem over there --> https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/ )
_______

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 12:49 am

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 12:15 pm Well, we all experience the true reality, there are just a lot of different ways of interpreting it.

How does illusion fit into that? Isn't it possible NOT to experience true reality?

Yeah, I didn't put that very well. What I meant was more that whatever true reality is, it is the cause of our experience. So for example bumble bees, like us, have three different colour receptors in their eyes; but instead of the green, blue and red of human eyes, bumble bees have green, blue and ultraviolet. Some flowers have evolved to have patterns which are invisible to humans, but which act like landing lights and directions to the nectar for bees. Anyway, bumble bees and humans look at the same true reality and see different things because, really far out metaphysics notwithstanding, there really is a flower. It's really up to you how you spin that; one the one hand you might argue that both humans and bees experience an illusion, on the other hand maybe both experience reality, just not all of it.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 8:12 amI was thinking along the lines of times in our lives where we might discover we were swirling in drunken illusion. A bit different, I think, than simply gathering new information. More like waking up.

Well, maybe drink and drugs open up the doors of perception.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 12:49 am

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 12:15 pmThere are sects and religions that are all embracing: Christian Universalism, Sikhism, Baháʼí for example, and while it strikes me as true that all religions are equal, it doesn't follow that any one is real.

Yes, that's a clear way to say it. I do think that 'not being real' doesn't diminish value.

You, me and Paul Feyerabend.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 12:49 amI suspect that much of what we deal with isn't 'real'.

Ain't that the truth?

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:13 am I cannot rule out the possibility that watching that YouTube video might be a colossal waste of 8 minutes of your life.

As weird or as wrong as this may sound to human ears... admittedly, somewhere along the way, I stopped looking for answers to unknowable questions that can't make a difference anyway. I guess I'm more drawn to notice connections and flows, and I ride that current in the moment. It's very full and vibrant. And I really don't concern myself with all the possibilities or what anyone may think is most interesting of all. Rather, I think it's helpful to remain aware that such vast potential exists. The implications! That seems to unlock the potential of every moment. No stories or rules... just vibration in motion, I guess.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:13 amHowever, aren't you the least bit interested in seeing (putting a face to) the person (me) you've been talking to on this forum for almost a decade now?

Of course! Out of curiosity I have checked out anyone that made it readily available! Perhaps it's surprising but I have a warm-hearted smile for anyone, even if I've lashed out with my words. I really do think we're all on a stage here. If I were to meet anyone from this forum in person, I would be 'in that moment'... and not dealing with their online persona.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:13 amI know that if you (or anyone else here) gave me an opportunity to see what you looked (and sounded) like,...

I've thought of doing it several times. But then I consider the freedom I feel to say whatever I want on this forum while I'm invisible.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:13 am(especially in a YouTube video in which you try to clarify your philosophical take on reality)

Oh, wouldn't that be fun? I shudder at the thought of what that might lead to!

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:13 am (Btw, if Rick manages to sell this forum, and whoever he sells it to ushers-in its demise, then I suggest that you [and the rest of the PN gang] should head on over to the ILP forum and join in on the similar nonsense and mayhem over there --> https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/ )

Oh! There's nonsense and mayhem over there too? Thanks for the tip!

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 10:25 am What I meant was more that whatever true reality is, it is the cause of our experience. So for example bumble bees, like us, have three different colour receptors in their eyes; but instead of the green, blue and red of human eyes, bumble bees have green, blue and ultraviolet. Some flowers have evolved to have patterns which are invisible to humans, but which act like landing lights and directions to the nectar for bees. Anyway, bumble bees and humans look at the same true reality and see different things because, really far out metaphysics notwithstanding, there really is a flower.

Ah, right!

Just to explore that idea a little bit... what is a flower to one, may be a dancing entity to another. Maybe? So, is that really a common reality?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 10:25 am Well, maybe drink and drugs open up the doors of perception.

Yes! And maybe anything can be used to open or close those doors, right?

My challenge is often with people who insist on ONE path, or who worship the path and its tokens rather than seeing what else it opens up to and points to. It may be what works for them and it may be all they want. But to suggest that it is the be-all end-all for everyone is sheer lunacy and a disservice to everyone they subject to that limited nonsense.

That would be like having a classroom full of students and stunting everyone to perform at the same dismal level. Spirituality (or awareness) is just another attribute with far-ranging capability beyond known 'standards'. Where would we be if our civilization had suppressed everyone to the same level? Look where we are BECAUSE we have suppressed so many!

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2026 12:15 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 12:49 amI do think that 'not being real' doesn't diminish value.

You, me and Paul Feyerabend.

Hey, he says a lot of the things I say! Holy cow! People speaking my language?

I've often longed to find 'my tribe'... but, I've wondered if such a tribe would even be content in finding each other? Almost like we were made to wander as solo adventurers through this farcical world of veils, while knowing it as such. I do think that meeting up with that most kindred of tribes somewhere beyond all of this, would be glorious. We would all nod and say, "Ah, yes! That's what that was, and here we are." Then we would laugh and laugh.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm...what is a flower to one, may be a dancing entity to another. Maybe? So, is that really a common reality?

Ah well, if it is possible to interpret the same thing as both a flower and a dancing entity, it is certainly possible to interpret the concept of reality differently. Maybe it's a dancing entity.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 10:25 am Well, maybe drink and drugs open up the doors of perception.

Yes! And maybe anything can be used to open or close those doors, right?

Blessed is she who can trip without psychedelics.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pmMy challenge is often with people who insist on ONE path, or who worship the path and its tokens rather than seeing what else it opens up to and points to. It may be what works for them and it may be all they want. But to suggest that it is the be-all end-all for everyone is sheer lunacy and a disservice to everyone they subject to that limited nonsense.

They're quite rare, but unfortunately some are very driven, totally unscrupulous and utterly ruthless, so they end up running corporations and countries.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pmThat would be like having a classroom full of students and stunting everyone to perform at the same dismal level. Spirituality (or awareness) is just another attribute with far-ranging capability beyond known 'standards'. Where would we be if our civilization had suppressed everyone to the same level? Look where we are BECAUSE we have suppressed so many!

Well yeah, the world is currently controlled by psychopaths, which is a bit of a bummer.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm Hey, he says a lot of the things I say! Holy cow! People speaking my language?

Only the sane ones.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pmI've often longed to find 'my tribe'... but, I've wondered if such a tribe would even be content in finding each other? Almost like we were made to wander as solo adventurers through this farcical world of veils, while knowing it as such. I do think that meeting up with that most kindred of tribes somewhere beyond all of this, would be glorious. We would all nod and say, "Ah, yes! That's what that was, and here we are." Then we would laugh and laugh.

Who knows? Whatever the truth about the universe, it is way more magical than any one idea can contain. Well, with the exception of the multiverse perhaps, according to which pretty much anything that could happen, does happen. So, somewhere far away, or just to the left a bit, you, seeds and myself are in a pub having a laugh; Mr Can is an affable barman and in walks Paul Feyerabend.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm...what is a flower to one, may be a dancing entity to another. Maybe? So, is that really a common reality?

Ah well, if it is possible to interpret the same thing as both a flower and a dancing entity, it is certainly possible to interpret the concept of reality differently. Maybe it's a dancing entity.

Considering that (wording per the internet) flowers can send and receive signals to bugs and birds, using both electrical and acoustic cues to communicate with pollinators... and plants can move on their own using specialized physiological mechanisms to respond to light, touch, gravity, water, and other environmental stimuli... and the Universe is vibrating..... who knows what all of this might be experienced as on the flower and bee level??

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 amBlessed is she who can trip without psychedelics.

Hee hee hee!

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 am Well yeah, the world is currently controlled by psychopaths, which is a bit of a bummer.

Yes, currently.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm People speaking my language?

Only the sane ones.

From our perspective, anyways.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 am Who knows? Whatever the truth about the universe, it is way more magical than any one idea can contain.

Wondrous!!

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 amSo, somewhere far away, or just to the left a bit, you, seeds and myself are in a pub having a laugh; Mr Can is an affable barman and in walks Paul Feyerabend.

I LOVE that!!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm People speaking my language?

Only the sane ones.

From our perspective, anyways.

Indeed. My apologies to those with different perspectives.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 9:38 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:26 amSo, somewhere far away, or just to the left a bit, you, seeds and myself are in a pub having a laugh; Mr Can is an affable barman and in walks Paul Feyerabend.

I LOVE that!!

It is a lovely idea, but sadly not one that is possible in this slice of the multiverse. Getting three people from different continents into a pub would take some effort. More tricky is getting Paul Feyerabend to walk in, as he's a bit dead. The real challenge though, is getting Mr Can to be affable.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 10:23 pm Getting three people from different continents into a pub would take some effort. More tricky is getting Paul Feyerabend to walk in, as he's a bit dead. The real challenge though, is getting Mr Can to be affable.

Nicely articulated!

We just need a time machine and transporters... OR to see the Universe as it really is, perhaps. I won't close that door.