Prove me wrong: there is no God

[Janoah]

The Torah speaks about the responsibility of Jews for their stupidities,
" They aroused my jealousy with a non-god
and provoked me with their vanities;
I will arouse their jealousy with a non-people
and provoke them with a vile nation."
(Deuteronomy 32, 21)
It was relevant then, and it is very recognizable now.
On October 7th, the retribution for one’s stupidity was exactly as stated in the Torah.
God is the law, according to this Law, he who jumps from the roof falls, he who goes against the God of Israel, he deals with the God of Israel.

We'll all kill each other in the name of "God".

Now, judging by the news, in the name of God, warriors of the "religion of peace" are killing, free, free Al-Andalus first! Londonistan second

[Gary Childress]

The Torah speaks about the responsibility of Jews for their stupidities,
" They aroused my jealousy with a non-god
and provoked me with their vanities;
I will arouse their jealousy with a non-people
and provoke them with a vile nation."
(Deuteronomy 32, 21)
It was relevant then, and it is very recognizable now.
On October 7th, the retribution for one’s stupidity was exactly as stated in the Torah.
God is the law, according to this Law, he who jumps from the roof falls, he who goes against the God of Israel, he deals with the God of Israel.

We'll all kill each other in the name of "God".

Now, judging by the news, in the name of God, warriors of the "religion of peace" are killing, free, free Al-Andalus first! Londonistan second

Sure, just focus on their crimes. That always works. They'll do the same with our crimes, and then all of us can feel equally righteous killing each other in the name of "God".

[Greatest I am]

The Torah speaks about the responsibility of Jews for their stupidities,
" They aroused my jealousy with a non-god
and provoked me with their vanities;
I will arouse their jealousy with a non-people
and provoke them with a vile nation."
(Deuteronomy 32, 21)
It was relevant then, and it is very recognizable now.
On October 7th, the retribution for one’s stupidity was exactly as stated in the Torah.
God is the law, according to this Law, he who jumps from the roof falls, he who goes against the God of Israel, he deals with the God of Israel.

It sounds like you have forgotten that Jews follow the Oral Torah which puts man above God. The best proof of this is when Jesus askes us all from the Bible; have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?

Jews have not forgotten their intelligent rejection of the supernatural.

[Gary Childress]

The Torah speaks about the responsibility of Jews for their stupidities,
" They aroused my jealousy with a non-god
and provoked me with their vanities;
I will arouse their jealousy with a non-people
and provoke them with a vile nation."
(Deuteronomy 32, 21)
It was relevant then, and it is very recognizable now.
On October 7th, the retribution for one’s stupidity was exactly as stated in the Torah.
God is the law, according to this Law, he who jumps from the roof falls, he who goes against the God of Israel, he deals with the God of Israel.

It sounds like you have forgotten that Jews follow the Oral Torah which puts man above God. The best proof of this is when Jesus askes us all from the Bible; have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?

Jews have not forgotten their intelligent rejection of the supernatural.

So, according to Jesus, I am a god. Is that correct? Didn't know Jesus was a Hindu.

[Iwannaplato]

If God is all powerful, then why would there be a holocaust in the first place?

I think you need to read my post a bit more carefully.

I think you need to answer my question. Seriously.

Did you try to read my post more carefully? I think you are wrong about what I need to do and not good at picking up sarcasm/parody. I'll add some formatting to help.

This is a great hypothesis. The Winters in Europe were extra harsh during the Holocaust. Of course this led to even more suffering for the Jews there. But maybe the HO cares more about punishment of the bad than empathy for the good. Save children, give the Germans (and the European allies) a tougher Winter. These are tough choices for a deity. Kill European eldery and poor swimming children. That's the way to stick it to earthly power. A deity has to be willing to inflict massive collateral damage on victims - whether Jewish or European non-Jews just to send a vague, atmospheric message to the consider to be by some bad critics. If only an all powerful deity could manage to be clear or directly help people.

I'm gonna do some calculating and see which baseball teams God favors.

[phyllo]

Lately, Europe has been going crazy with its insinuations against Israel, and suddenly the news is reporting about crazy, unprecedented heat in this Europe. Prove to me that this isn't a hint from the Heavenly Office.

It doesn't sound very scientific.

[commonsense]

I think you need to read my post a bit more carefully.

I think you need to answer my question. Seriously.

Did you try to read my post more carefully? I think you are wrong about what I need to do and not good at picking up sarcasm/parody. I'll add some formatting to help.

This is a great hypothesis. The Winters in Europe were extra harsh during the Holocaust. Of course this led to even more suffering for the Jews there. But maybe the HO cares more about punishment of the bad than empathy for the good. Save children, give the Germans (and the European allies) a tougher Winter. These are tough choices for a deity. Kill European eldery and poor swimming children. That's the way to stick it to earthly power. A deity has to be willing to inflict massive collateral damage on victims - whether Jewish or European non-Jews just to send a vague, atmospheric message to the consider to be by some bad critics. If only an all powerful deity could manage to be clear or directly help people.

I'm gonna do some calculating and see which baseball teams God favors.

Your sarcasm was clear enough to me. My question was sincere.

[Janoah]

Lately, Europe has been going crazy with its insinuations against Israel, and suddenly the news is reporting about crazy, unprecedented heat in this Europe. Prove to me that this isn't a hint from the Heavenly Office.

It doesn't sound very scientific.

If they don't violate a stated regularity in the world, then they are not anti-scientific.

[commonsense]

I’m agnostic. In my view, God must be benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. Children with cancer make me believe that God is not those things. Therefore He/She is not God. No?

Let's go back to here.

I simply can;t understand the juxtaposition, "I am agnostic" and "God must be X, Y , and Z"" and "God is not X or not Y or not Z" concluding "therefore there is no God"

Sorry -- if you are agnostic don't know about God, what God is like, from where do you get "God must be X, Y, and Z"

I think you might better put it "God as understood by people of religion W must be X, Y, and Z" I conclude (based on my observation of reality that God, if there is one is not X, or not Y, or not Z" and I disbelieve in a deity as understood by people of religion W". THAT'S ALL. You haven't given any reason to disbelieve is SOME deity.

I have met people self describing as atheists who are doing so because they were so influenced/brainwashed by the religion they are trying to reject that they can see deity ONLY as that religion describes God. They conflate their certainty "no God LIKE THAT" exists with "NO God exists". The cure is for them to expose themselves to a very different religion or two. Even though they may also reject those other religions, exposure to very different notions of what God is like usually cures them of jumping from "no God like THAT exists" to "NO God exists" and they become agnostic instead of atheist.

More accurately I should have said that I was an agnostic. I always thought that there is no way either to affirm the existence of God or to reject it. Now I think differently.

[Gary Childress]

I’m agnostic. In my view, God must be benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. Children with cancer make me believe that God is not those things. Therefore He/She is not God. No?

Let's go back to here.

I simply can;t understand the juxtaposition, "I am agnostic" and "God must be X, Y , and Z"" and "God is not X or not Y or not Z" concluding "therefore there is no God"

Sorry -- if you are agnostic don't know about God, what God is like, from where do you get "God must be X, Y, and Z"

I think you might better put it "God as understood by people of religion W must be X, Y, and Z" I conclude (based on my observation of reality that God, if there is one is not X, or not Y, or not Z" and I disbelieve in a deity as understood by people of religion W". THAT'S ALL. You haven't given any reason to disbelieve is SOME deity.

I have met people self describing as atheists who are doing so because they were so influenced/brainwashed by the religion they are trying to reject that they can see deity ONLY as that religion describes God. They conflate their certainty "no God LIKE THAT" exists with "NO God exists". The cure is for them to expose themselves to a very different religion or two. Even though they may also reject those other religions, exposure to very different notions of what God is like usually cures them of jumping from "no God like THAT exists" to "NO God exists" and they become agnostic instead of atheist.

More accurately I should have said that I was an agnostic. I always thought that there is no way either to affirm the existence of God or to reject it. Now I think differently.

So are you now an atheist or a theist? And what changed your mind away from agnosticism?

EDIT: Or are you saying that you're now an atheist and the problem of evil and suffering is what brought you away from agnosticism? I often seem to be slow on the uptake, so maybe that's what you are saying?

[commonsense]

Let me know how that all strikes you. We can go a further step in that thinking, but only if I'm clear so far, and if you're content with it.

It strikes me as very well thought out. I agree that it would be better to live in accordance with God’s wishes than to seek the protection of a Satan.

But here are my thoughts on the power of God—certainly the power not to do evil is a legitimate power. Yet evil does occur in this world. That should mean that a power to do evil must sometimes overcome the power to do good. In other words, God’s power is not always powerful enough to overcome evil; I.e. God must be only partially powerful.

Also, I would put it that the absence of health, for example, would be meaningless without the concepts of illness and injury. Good is meaningless without evil.

I would appreciate your continued feedback.

[Immanuel Can]

Let me know how that all strikes you. We can go a further step in that thinking, but only if I'm clear so far, and if you're content with it.

It strikes me as very well thought out. I agree that it would be better to live in accordance with God’s wishes than to seek the protection of a Satan.

But here are my thoughts on the power of God—certainly the power not to do evil is a legitimate power.

Yes, agreed...NOT to do evil is a kind of desirable quality. But I don't think it requires any power, unless one is already inclined in some strong way to do evil. It doesn't take any power to not do what one is not inclined to do anyway.

Yet evil does occur in this world. That should mean that a power to do evil must sometimes overcome the power to do good. In other words, God’s power is not always powerful enough to overcome evil; I.e. God must be only partially powerful.

But there's another hypothesis, and I think it's worth thinking about. What if the allowance of some level of evil is actually a prerequisite to a surpassing good? What if the presence of evil could be turned, jujitsu-style, into a kind of good thing that is far better than what otherwise might have been?

Also, I would put it that the absence of health, for example, would be meaningless without the concepts of illness and injury. Good is meaningless without evil.

I don't think that's the case. One could BE healthy without the existence of illness or injury. One would simply not know the concept of health, but one would not BE less healthy. On the other hand, the reverse is not true; we only can identify illness or injury by reference to a state of health. And more, if health didn't exist, neither would illness or injury...they would have not only no meaning, but no possibility of existing at all.

However, that is only an analogy, not the core issue. The core issue, I would say, is whether evil is a thing-in-itself or only a derivative. I think it's derivative.

I would appreciate your continued feedback.

Likewise. Interesting conversation. Very challenging and thoughtful responses, on your side.

[phyllo]

Lately, Europe has been going crazy with its insinuations against Israel, and suddenly the news is reporting about crazy, unprecedented heat in this Europe. Prove to me that this isn't a hint from the Heavenly Office.

It doesn't sound very scientific.

If they don't violate a stated regularity in the world, then they are not anti-scientific.

Well, if the weather is changed because someone said or wrote something, then that's not scientific.

[Greatest I am]

The Torah speaks about the responsibility of Jews for their stupidities,
" They aroused my jealousy with a non-god
and provoked me with their vanities;
I will arouse their jealousy with a non-people
and provoke them with a vile nation."
(Deuteronomy 32, 21)
It was relevant then, and it is very recognizable now.
On October 7th, the retribution for one’s stupidity was exactly as stated in the Torah.
God is the law, according to this Law, he who jumps from the roof falls, he who goes against the God of Israel, he deals with the God of Israel.

It sounds like you have forgotten that Jews follow the Oral Torah which puts man above God. The best proof of this is when Jesus askes us all from the Bible; have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?

Jews have not forgotten their intelligent rejection of the supernatural.

So, according to Jesus, I am a god. Is that correct? Didn't know Jesus was a Hindu.

Yes, as well as the Bible telling us we know good from evil and are to judge all things, including genocidal Gods, and hold to the good.

Who is the most fit to judge us if not ourselves? Some genocidal supernatural dick wad just won't cut it for me.

No moral person embraces a genocidal God.

[Janoah]

It doesn't sound very scientific.

If they don't violate a stated regularity in the world, then they are not anti-scientific.

Well, if the weather is changed because someone said or wrote something, then that's not scientific.

If I would be in Your place, if You live in Europe, I wouldn't be so sure of this, but it's a free country.